Madden 101 - An educational football/Madden podcast series

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by SyncereBlackout

I've linked your series on Reddit a few times but you may want to cross post there (for coverage). There's a real need for your analysis. Keep up the good work buddy

Thank you sir, really appreciate it!

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBottom305

Will you be going over more of the Tampa 2 after playing the game?

I definitely plan to have some ongoing discussions (likely with other league members, perhaps even round-table style) post-release about how we're doing things in M17. Tampa 2 will be part of it, but I don't know about an entire episode. From the vids I've seen it represented as a specific play "specifically Tampa 2" instead of say "Cover 2 Flats" or something. It shouldn't change anything about the personnel you need to run it, but we can talk Madden limitations, how to user to cover up those limitations, etc.

[DaBottom305]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

I definitely plan to have some ongoing discussions (likely with other league members, perhaps even round-table style) post-release about how we're doing things in M17. Tampa 2 will be part of it, but I don't know about an entire episode. From the vids I've seen it represented as a specific play "specifically Tampa 2" instead of say "Cover 2 Flats" or something. It shouldn't change anything about the personnel you need to run it, but we can talk Madden limitations, how to user to cover up those limitations, etc.

I saw the same on a few videos. Looking forward hearing more.

I'm using the Jags in one of my leagues this year. What do you think about their personnel on defense for the T2? I was planning on moving Telvin to MLB for the speed. I think the corners are ok. Not too sure about the DL.

[Aestis]

Just from looking over their current ratings, my initial thoughts:

I def think they have the core pieces to make it work but have a few spots I'd worry about initially:

• CBs can play in any system, to be honest. They are among the best in the game, imo. You've got 3 guys with seemingly solid-to-excellent PRS (Ramsey, Amukamara, House) in the new ratings scale. Kind of a waste of Ramsey's speed and all their 82-85 MCV, but you could mix in some Man Press blitzes as the D gets comfortable with your Tampa 2 looks.
• 85 spd (Gipson) is slow for a Tampa 2 safety for my tastes. Cyprien at 88 spd 92 acc should be fine. They've got to cover a lot of ground.
• As you said, Smith should be able to play MLB. He's obviously got the speed, but he's smaller than you want (35 lbs lighter than Urlacher, for reference). I would strongly consider letting Myles Jack play MLB for that reason. He's a little slower but is still a fast LB, and he's got better size/BSH to stop the run up the middle.
• Smith therefore would be an awesome OLB. You'd need to find another OLB as most of your other viable starting LBs seem slow. Pos is a good player still but he's a poor fit to play any LB position in that scheme.
• DL seems in better shape than you think. Fowler needs development but if you can turn him into an excellent pass rusher, then Jackson is perfect at DT and Marks can get the job done for a season or two until you get a smaller, more disruptive guy at DT2.

So, go get a DE opposite Fowler and an OLB opposite Smith/Jack first priority. Secondary is trying to upgrade Gipson to get a faster FS. He's not awfully slow so he can hold down the fort for a while. Draft a playmaker DT for season 2 or 3 to replace Marks as he ages. Voila.

[graphster21]

Just a heads up, traditional Tampa 2 defense is tough to play against spread formations. It's a pretty hard ask for the MLB to cover the deep middle when the guys running up the seams are slot receivers instead of tight ends (keep in mind that the defense was initially designed to combat west coast offenses that featured the TE in the passing game). It's even harder in Madden because the game doesn't have press/chuck logic for the OLBs (in real life these players would be responsible for jamming and re-routing slot receivers as they attempt to run up the seams). Then you throw in the ability to include the QB in the run game (which effectively gets the offense an extra blocker), and it's a lot harder for the defense to hold up since you are already down an extra player in the box by keeping both safeties deep.

Additionally, 4 verticals poses some real problems because you only have 3 deep zones (and one of those zones is a MLB who also has run responsibilities). In real life, you could have some sort of pattern match scheme where the corners would carry the outside receivers deep (and essentially convert to man coverage) if nobody runs to the flat, but that hasn't been possible in the game to this point. It remains to be seen if the new pattern match zones that were added to Madden 17 will address this issue.

As a result of some of these issues, you rarely see teams running a pure Tampa 2 as an every down defense anymore (though it can still be fairly effective as a long yardage defense in obvious pass situations). Particularly as the NFL has become more and more of a spread league with greater use of 3 and 4 receiver sets (and tight ends who run like receivers), it's just very difficult to play it as much as Tony Dungy used to back in the day. Instead, you see a lot more combo coverages, where they will play cover 2 to one side and either man or cover 4 to the other side.

[DaBottom305]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

Just from looking over their current ratings, my initial thoughts: I def think they have the core pieces to make it work but have a few spots I'd worry about initially: CBs can play in any system, to be honest. They are among the best in the game, imo. You've got 3 guys with seemingly solid-to-excellent PRS (Ramsey, Amukamara, House) in the new ratings scale. Kind of a waste of Ramsey's speed and all their 82-85 MCV, but you could mix in some Man Press blitzes as the D gets comfortable with your Tampa 2 looks. 85 spd (Gipson) is slow for a Tampa 2 safety for my tastes. Cyprien at 88 spd 92 acc should be fine. They've got to cover a lot of ground. As you said, Smith should be able to play MLB. He's obviously got the speed, but he's smaller than you want (35 lbs lighter than Urlacher, for reference). I would strongly consider letting Myles Jack play MLB for that reason. He's a little slower but is still a fast LB, and he's got better size/BSH to stop the run up the middle. Smith therefore would be an awesome OLB. You'd need to find another OLB as most of your other viable starting LBs seem slow. Pos is a good player still but he's a poor fit to play any LB position in that scheme. DL seems in better shape than you think. Fowler needs development but if you can turn him into an excellent pass rusher, then Jackson is perfect at DT and Marks can get the job done for a season or two until you get a smaller, more disruptive guy at DT2. So, go get a DE opposite Fowler and an OLB opposite Smith/Jack first priority. Secondary is trying to upgrade Gipson to get a faster FS. He's not awfully slow so he can hold down the fort for a while. Draft a playmaker DT for season 2 or 3 to replace Marks as he ages. Voila.

Thank you for the tips.

I actually have a potential trade for Micah Hyde when our league starts.

88 Speed, 83 Zone, 72 Tackle but only 43 Block Shed and 45 Hit Power.

I noticed he has Marwin Evans. 90 Speed, 74 Zone, 70 Hit Power. 45 Block Shed. I'll wait to see if he gets dropped in our preseason lol

Quote: Originally Posted by graphster21

Just a heads up, traditional Tampa 2 defense is tough to play against spread formations. It's a pretty hard ask for the MLB to cover the deep middle when the guys running up the seams are slot receivers instead of tight ends (keep in mind that the defense was initially designed to combat west coast offenses that featured the TE in the passing game). It's even harder in Madden because the game doesn't have press/chuck logic for the OLBs (in real life these players would be responsible for jamming and re-routing slot receivers as they attempt to run up the seams). Then you throw in the ability to include the QB in the run game (which effectively gets the offense an extra blocker), and it's a lot harder for the defense to hold up since you are already down an extra player in the box by keeping both safeties deep. Additionally, 4 verticals poses some real problems because you only have 3 deep zones (and one of those zones is a MLB who also has run responsibilities). In real life, you could have some sort of pattern match scheme where the corners would carry the outside receivers deep (and essentially convert to man coverage) if nobody runs to the flat, but that hasn't been possible in the game to this point. It remains to be seen if the new pattern match zones that were added to Madden 17 will address this issue. As a result of some of these issues, you rarely see teams running a pure Tampa 2 as an every down defense anymore (though it can still be fairly effective as a long yardage defense in obvious pass situations). Particularly as the NFL has become more and more of a spread league with greater use of 3 and 4 receiver sets (and tight ends who run like receivers), it's just very difficult to play it as much as Tony Dungy used to back in the day. Instead, you see a lot more combo coverages, where they will play cover 2 to one side and either man or cover 4 to the other side.

I usually use 4-3 when its 2 WRs or less. 3 or more I use Nickel or Dime. I might use Dal pb since they have the Big Dime formation with a SS at LB.

[Aestis]

Thanks for the added points--re-routing the slot WRs is (I assume still) the biggest missing point in Madden's Tampa 2. I still think it's a viable D to build for. As I mentioned in the podcast, we have an upper tier user who runs it as his base D. I don't think 5-10 teams in a given league should be running it, but I think there's room for 1-3 to do it if you have the personnel and mix in other looks.

Quote: Originally Posted by graphster21

It remains to be seen if the new pattern match zones that were added to Madden 17 will address this issue.

I'm extremely interested to see what pattern match coverage looks like in M17. I got SUPER excited when I read about it. Between this & gap play, these are two insanely HUGE semi-under-the-radar changes. But in practice M17 might be "only" a good first step forward if, in fact, pattern match coverage manifests as just a handful of plays in each playbook instead of a new commonplace standard, like it's become in the NFL.

[leafs nation]

This was a great series. Just found it lol. I am exactly the basic kind of listener that is learning with every episode. Too bad you didn't finish it. Exactly the type of tutorial I've been looking for on both football and video game football. I bought Madden 21 for the first time in a long time. This will help me on both sides of the ball feel like I know what and why I'm doing things more.