Dynamic pocket versus static approximation involving standing and pushing

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

I'm thinking at some point the pocket should be redone. Yes it vaguely resembles a pocket, but what's going on really isn't representative of it. See, instead of tackles riding or trying to re-route defensive ends around the QB, everyone just kind of moves together until a pocket-shape is formed, and then your usually patty-cake + dice rolls take over. In the real NFL, defensive ends rarely are held in one place. When offensive linemen are successful, it's because they simply redirect the defensive ends' momentum to a point that is past the QB (as the quarterback steps up). For example, this video:
https://streamable.com/rvid

Found here:
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/11/18/1...-pass-blocking

Contrast this with Madden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D-RemUd3KI&t=1m39s

What you see most of the time is the OL will stop his momentum and push him, and then engage in more patty cake. Usually what happens in real life, especially for edge rushers, is the defensive ends' momentum is never stonewalled. It's usually redirected. You almost NEVER see an offensive tackle just post up and anchor down on a defensive end. Either they are pushed backwards (from an inside move like a bull rush), or they have to move their feet and redirect the momentum.


I'm not saying there aren't times when the animation that is played is a good representation of reality. What I'm saying is that it doesn't feel like the pass rushers are dynamically attempting the get to the quarterback. The ends are stood up far too often, and there isn't nearly enough re-routing of the DEs around the QB like in real football.

There is way too much standing and pushing. Interior pass rushers should be trying to KNIFE their way in between linemen more often. As a defense against this kind of pass rush, offensive linemen will again attempt to redirect momentum (usually pushing the guy to the ground if possible), unless there is help in the middle. Now, in real life the stand up patty cake thing happens more often with interior pass rushing, but even then you see the offensive linemen generally moved backwards.

But see here:
https://streamable.com/i1jb

While the DT definitely runs straight at the offensive linemen, you see two things: first, he moves the OL backwards. Second, when he's hit on his flanks from other offensive linemen, he rotates his body to try to knife through the pass protectors. He definitely loses here, but he's facing a THREE on one. Not a ONE on one, like you almost always see in Madden.

He engages the Center, but is hit on both sides by the two guards, and even still he angles his body to try to get past them. The center does a good job grabbing cloth on the inside, and along with the guards they win, but you wonder if the left guard hadn't gotten involved if that knifing move might have gotten more interior pressure. As it stands, Tannehil still couldn't really step up because that DT pushed the pile backwards. Granted, that doesn't always happen, but the point is the entire interaction was dynamic. It wasn't a 1 v 1 patty cake fight.




The stand up and push stuff just doesn't happen very much at all in real football at any level, but in Madden it's by far the most common event in the forming of the pocket.


Any thoughts?

[Devildog Frank]

Excellent post and explanation on real line play in football. Im not sure what the problem is that has prevented this game from being developed properly to mimmick this. Either the Madden Devs have no idea what real line play is, or, they do know, and just havent been able to figure out how to get Madden to mimmick it.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by Devildog Frank

Excellent post and explanation on real line play in football. Im not sure what the problem is that has prevented this game from being developed properly to mimmick this. Either the Madden Devs have no idea what real line play is, or, they do know, and just havent been able to figure out how to get Madden to mimmick it.

One of their key people is a former NFL offensive linemen, so I'd dare say it isn't a lack of understanding. I think it's likely the problem is two-fold: legacy coding and marketability of this particular overhaul (as opposed to other overhauls, like the battle between DBs and WRs). "Suction blocking" has always been a thing for as long as I can remember, for example.




Look back to a few years ago, to around the time when Clint Oldenburg first started working with them. They designed a "pocket" which FOR THE TIME, looked really cool compared to what had come before. For the first time ever something in Madden resembled a pocket. Even running backs had realistic blocking assignments, double teams occurred, etc.

That was on the previous generation though, and even on the generation before that I think (at least I think they tried to get it to work on PS2's and Xbox's for the later versions of Madden). There was probably technology limitations at the time, and so something similar to what we have now was not only a good upgrade from what came before, but it was probably state of the art.


The problem is that much of that lives on today. Yes, there have been adjustments. Like a couple years ago with the buttons to jump the snap and then win the one on on match-ups. But these things were just modifications to an already existing system.



Additionally, I think there is one more problem, and this one is probably a game play decision (and if it is, I feel really sorry for those of us who want a more realistic pass rush/pass blocking system). If this is true, it would be that they want it to be about the user controlling things more, which means button presses to win match ups, which in turn means there has to be more stand up 1 v 1 match ups in the first place to trigger the button mashing. If that's the case then we are truly screwed- but I don't think it is, personally.

If, on the other hand, the issue is that they didn't think completely scrapping the old pocket forming and replacing it with something more realistic and dynamic worth making a priority (due to the amount of reworking required versus customer satisfaction for doing it), then we might have hope. Why? Because they've already laid some massive ground work for revamping something far more conspicuous to the average gamer: the battle between the defensive backs and receivers- which means they are willing in principle to completely revamp and then continue to modify a core element of the game. That's a lot more "bling" than the battle between pass rushers and pass blockers, so I can see them feeling it was justifiable to spend the time developing it.


Pass blocking and pass rush, on the other hand, would probably be an even larger undertaking with half the marketability. This, I think, is the biggest problem. Unfortunately, the best time to make it marketable was LAST year, since Denver won that Super Bowl in large part because of the havoc created by Von Miller and Demarco Ware.

But there is hope, since they drastically changed how the RUN game worked the last few years (and no it isn't perfect, and there are AI issues, but at least the assignments AI players are given has a much greater resemblance to real football than Madden of 6 or 7 years ago).


What we need for this to be completely revamped are two things, I think:

(1) The team to have sufficiently overhauled the other aspects of football that they feel needed to be done (like the battle between DBs and WRs), so that overhauling the pass rush and pass blocking mechanics would seem like the obvious next big step,

and

(2) The importance of pass rushers to once again become the forefront of the collective consciousness for NFL fans. In other words, we need more media hype regarding the trenches.

[timhere1970]

It's just not sexy enough. Real football fans know the game is won or lost with blocking or the failure to do so. However, just like tv madden emphasizes stars. The best we can probably hope for is tat they put some mechanism in the game to get star players more sacks. I like running a Preassure defense, spending big money on pass rushers and keeping Preassure on the qb with four and five guys. The last couple of years in madden it as been difficult to achieve this and I feel I am wasting cap space paying dominate linemen as I watch them fail to get to the qb in 6 seconds time after time.