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Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Old 02-20-2017, 09:41 PM   #9
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Understand and agree.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:49 PM   #10
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by charter04
That's good stuff to add. I tried to think of all the things to include but, didn't want to get too lengthy. Lol. Great stuff you added though.

Clearly you have a philosophy that works for you and you stick with it. That's a great thing.

I run traps pretty rarely. I run power O a lot though. I also like my guards to be quick enough to pull but, I'll choose size and power first personally.


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Fair. Right on! I honestly spend more cap room, development effort, and building around my passing game in terms of personnel (second to oline). But my foundation is a healthy smash mouth, old school style.

I can lightem up, but prefer to pound to submission lol. I feel your comment about the pass setting up the run is severely over stated and under understood- by many. You gave the reason it works, the opposing defense needs to fear leaving a single high or the CBs on an island.

When the defense can't overload the box, can't predict the play selection from personnel, is met with an oline that can move and push hard....Pick your seam and take it home.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:52 PM   #11
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by charter04
That's good stuff to add. I tried to think of all the things to include but, didn't want to get too lengthy. Lol. Great stuff you added though.

Clearly you have a philosophy that works for you and you stick with it. That's a great thing.

I run traps pretty rarely. I run power O a lot though. I also like my guards to be quick enough to pull but, I'll choose size and power first personally.


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Lol, I'm a writer by trade so I appreciate a good read. And my passion is football. Both on the field and in the game.

Never been an online gamer so offline cfm sim style over here. Love reading/knowing/ playing with real football strategy in a game and seeing life like results. Haven't been on the field in almost a decade so this game and these threads keep me happy lol
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #12
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

All of the posts here are great, it's nice to see players that realize there's more to success than speed bursts and perfectly timed juke spins.

Another way to classify the two most common run game philosophies that are used today are zone and man. This post is to help players better understand why and how to effectively run different schemes. It's not something I would normally explain in a game forum, but surprisingly this is a case where "real life" knowledge can transfer to game success.

I'll keep it dead simple because this post isn't intended to test anyone's depth of understanding, it's just to help moderately advanced football minds who may not have been exposed to higher level OL systems.

Man scheme:

The purpose is to "out gap" the defense. Modern schemes have a defender assigned to each gap and he's expected to hold his gap. The first level(DL) shades(5-edge, 3-field shade Guard, 1-boundary shade Center, 5-edge) are designed to make it impossible for a 5 man line to create an unmanned gap without movement(pull,trap,etc..) to give them the leverage needed to create an undefended gap. Most defenses feel comfortable with their LB's matching the athleticism of moving OL to prevent that which is why you ideally want OL that can displace the DL to block second level flow to the point of attack.

Offensively you are picking a specific hole and attacking it, unless you have undisciplined over-pursuit from a non-gap defense(doesn't exist in madden) there should not be a cut back option for the back. the blocks at the point of attack are the best angles and usually a double team so the chance of successful first level block decreases the farther you get from the point of attack. The OL tries to turn the defenders shoulders and seal him off from controlling that gap or remove him entirely.


Zone scheme:

The offense is now counting on the defenders to maintain gap integrity and in a way allowing them to. The basic principle here is that if the B gap defenders job is to not vacate his gap, then we can bring an OL from a gap "behind"(weakside of the play) to block him. It's most obvious on outside zone, but inside zone is the same thing but with a double team. The zone double team is very different from the man double. Here the idea is that if he sinks(holds his gap) you capture him with the OL from weakside. If he floats(poor integrity, vacates his gap to chase the ball) the playside OL stays on him and the weakside now has space to move up the second level because you guessed it - the float read makes the RB cut back. The benefit of zone is in this simplicity, you're not fighting the DL for his gap all day, and the RB initially has 1 simple read.

For technique the OL doesn't have to displace or turn shoulders, they just need to keep central pressure on the defender and let him choose to sink or float. This is where Madden breaks down for realism, the individual OL don't behave differently for man and zone plays, but their assignments are generally right and you can run zone off the read with great success.

The reason zone is very popular in the NFL today is not because it works better. It's because you don't need huge strong athletes to run it like you do man. You also don't need backs with great vision or tackle breaking ability. When it comes to draft picks and free agents, zone gives great value. That does apply to CFM, but if you have those pieces in place already, man should be more successful.

The most helpful thing about understanding the two systems is that you can see why your running game is failing early in the game and adjust your run calls. If the DL is dominating the LOS, isolate them by running zone. If you're getting great push and it's allowing defenders to leak through big seams, you should be running man.

I hope this helps someone enjoy more success running the ball.. There are many more layers of depth here that I'm happy to dig into if anyone is interested.
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:33 AM   #13
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fours
All of the posts here are great, it's nice to see players that realize there's more to success than speed bursts and perfectly timed juke spins.

Another way to classify the two most common run game philosophies that are used today are zone and man. This post is to help players better understand why and how to effectively run different schemes. It's not something I would normally explain in a game forum, but surprisingly this is a case where "real life" knowledge can transfer to game success.

I'll keep it dead simple because this post isn't intended to test anyone's depth of understanding, it's just to help moderately advanced football minds who may not have been exposed to higher level OL systems.

Man scheme:

The purpose is to "out gap" the defense. Modern schemes have a defender assigned to each gap and he's expected to hold his gap. The first level(DL) shades(5-edge, 3-field shade Guard, 1-boundary shade Center, 5-edge) are designed to make it impossible for a 5 man line to create an unmanned gap without movement(pull,trap,etc..) to give them the leverage needed to create an undefended gap. Most defenses feel comfortable with their LB's matching the athleticism of moving OL to prevent that which is why you ideally want OL that can displace the DL to block second level flow to the point of attack.

Offensively you are picking a specific hole and attacking it, unless you have undisciplined over-pursuit from a non-gap defense(doesn't exist in madden) there should not be a cut back option for the back. the blocks at the point of attack are the best angles and usually a double team so the chance of successful first level block decreases the farther you get from the point of attack. The OL tries to turn the defenders shoulders and seal him off from controlling that gap or remove him entirely.


Zone scheme:

The offense is now counting on the defenders to maintain gap integrity and in a way allowing them to. The basic principle here is that if the B gap defenders job is to not vacate his gap, then we can bring an OL from a gap "behind"(weakside of the play) to block him. It's most obvious on outside zone, but inside zone is the same thing but with a double team. The zone double team is very different from the man double. Here the idea is that if he sinks(holds his gap) you capture him with the OL from weakside. If he floats(poor integrity, vacates his gap to chase the ball) the playside OL stays on him and the weakside now has space to move up the second level because you guessed it - the float read makes the RB cut back. The benefit of zone is in this simplicity, you're not fighting the DL for his gap all day, and the RB initially has 1 simple read.

For technique the OL doesn't have to displace or turn shoulders, they just need to keep central pressure on the defender and let him choose to sink or float. This is where Madden breaks down for realism, the individual OL don't behave differently for man and zone plays, but their assignments are generally right and you can run zone off the read with great success.

The reason zone is very popular in the NFL today is not because it works better. It's because you don't need huge strong athletes to run it like you do man. You also don't need backs with great vision or tackle breaking ability. When it comes to draft picks and free agents, zone gives great value. That does apply to CFM, but if you have those pieces in place already, man should be more successful.

The most helpful thing about understanding the two systems is that you can see why your running game is failing early in the game and adjust your run calls. If the DL is dominating the LOS, isolate them by running zone. If you're getting great push and it's allowing defenders to leak through big seams, you should be running man.

I hope this helps someone enjoy more success running the ball.. There are many more layers of depth here that I'm happy to dig into if anyone is interested.
Great post!
I think it would cool to see Clint Oldenburg see this thread and chime in w/ his 2cents as well.
I know they're striving to get the Oline and Dline play as good as they can and to see a "Sim" thread about this very thing, speaks to how far they have come w/ Madden already.
I'll be following this one just to build my knowledge on running and possibly more.

Good job Charter for bringing this to light!
So with this new Update, do we like where the difficulty is in running @ default All-Pro or All-Madden?
Or
Do we still need to change the sliders around to make it better?
I've struggled running w/ the new Update. I'm offline CFM, AP default, Normal gamespeed. I've thought about testing slow speed to see if running is any easier, but, I really love the challenge, and not being guaranteed a 3rd & 1 dive, fb dive, qb sneak to work everytime.
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Old 02-21-2017, 06:29 AM   #14
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fours
All of the posts here are great, it's nice to see players that realize there's more to success than speed bursts and perfectly timed juke spins.

Another way to classify the two most common run game philosophies that are used today are zone and man. This post is to help players better understand why and how to effectively run different schemes. It's not something I would normally explain in a game forum, but surprisingly this is a case where "real life" knowledge can transfer to game success.

I'll keep it dead simple because this post isn't intended to test anyone's depth of understanding, it's just to help moderately advanced football minds who may not have been exposed to higher level OL systems.

Man scheme:

The purpose is to "out gap" the defense. Modern schemes have a defender assigned to each gap and he's expected to hold his gap. The first level(DL) shades(5-edge, 3-field shade Guard, 1-boundary shade Center, 5-edge) are designed to make it impossible for a 5 man line to create an unmanned gap without movement(pull,trap,etc..) to give them the leverage needed to create an undefended gap. Most defenses feel comfortable with their LB's matching the athleticism of moving OL to prevent that which is why you ideally want OL that can displace the DL to block second level flow to the point of attack.

Offensively you are picking a specific hole and attacking it, unless you have undisciplined over-pursuit from a non-gap defense(doesn't exist in madden) there should not be a cut back option for the back. the blocks at the point of attack are the best angles and usually a double team so the chance of successful first level block decreases the farther you get from the point of attack. The OL tries to turn the defenders shoulders and seal him off from controlling that gap or remove him entirely.


Zone scheme:

The offense is now counting on the defenders to maintain gap integrity and in a way allowing them to. The basic principle here is that if the B gap defenders job is to not vacate his gap, then we can bring an OL from a gap "behind"(weakside of the play) to block him. It's most obvious on outside zone, but inside zone is the same thing but with a double team. The zone double team is very different from the man double. Here the idea is that if he sinks(holds his gap) you capture him with the OL from weakside. If he floats(poor integrity, vacates his gap to chase the ball) the playside OL stays on him and the weakside now has space to move up the second level because you guessed it - the float read makes the RB cut back. The benefit of zone is in this simplicity, you're not fighting the DL for his gap all day, and the RB initially has 1 simple read.

For technique the OL doesn't have to displace or turn shoulders, they just need to keep central pressure on the defender and let him choose to sink or float. This is where Madden breaks down for realism, the individual OL don't behave differently for man and zone plays, but their assignments are generally right and you can run zone off the read with great success.

The reason zone is very popular in the NFL today is not because it works better. It's because you don't need huge strong athletes to run it like you do man. You also don't need backs with great vision or tackle breaking ability. When it comes to draft picks and free agents, zone gives great value. That does apply to CFM, but if you have those pieces in place already, man should be more successful.

The most helpful thing about understanding the two systems is that you can see why your running game is failing early in the game and adjust your run calls. If the DL is dominating the LOS, isolate them by running zone. If you're getting great push and it's allowing defenders to leak through big seams, you should be running man.

I hope this helps someone enjoy more success running the ball.. There are many more layers of depth here that I'm happy to dig into if anyone is interested.
Great breakdown man. Accurate, relevant. I think u hit the nail on the head regarding zone scheme abundance. It's not that it's easier to run, but it is easier to install with smaller and faster personnel. This def directly ties to the game- and it does so due to wat u stated- the game does scheme zone right but doesn't have the ol actually execute the tech. But this helps in the game when running zone when doing so with a quick RB. Doesn't need to have great BCV or break tackles, as long as the user can see the cut backs themselves. Thanks for the contribution!
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:41 AM   #15
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Has anybody else had a nightmare of a time running hb power plays? When I run them my guard ends up pushed back into my run lane almost everytime as when I get the handout I am on his back 3 to 4 yards in the backfield constantly and lose yards. I have used many different offensive linemen up to +90 run blockers with 95 strength and it still happens.
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Old 02-21-2017, 08:44 AM   #16
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by timhere1970
Has anybody else had a nightmare of a time running hb power plays? When I run them my guard ends up pushed back into my run lane almost everytime as when I get the handout I am on his back 3 to 4 yards in the backfield constantly and lose yards. I have used many different offensive linemen up to +90 run blockers with 95 strength and it still happens.
How's your playcalling diversity? I've found the AI is aware enough to key on repeated run styles and repeated plays from formations. I have issues when I constantly press an ISO. This normally happens to me second half when I'm trying to eat clock and fatigue the defense. After a successful inside run, calling the same play again in sussecion will normally (for me) backfire with results like you've described.

I find most success in power running when there is a hint of an outside zone presence. To elaborate- my depth will normally consist of a bruiser that can catch (RB1), a jack of all trades and master of little (RB2), and a bigger back with speed, pass blocking, and catching ability as my 3DRB. Many times untill I find the right personnel with depth, my RB1 and 3DRB are the same. I pound the inside with power plays predominantly (ISO, power, trap, dive, etc), but I will conciously add in: inside zone (this is really meant to cut outside, if the def is keying on ur inside game- a well timed inside zone can yield great chunk plays when u find the cut out), outside zone (think reverse or inside zone. The defense is keying in the inside power, but is aware of the zone taking it outside, outside zone sets up the stretch- but affords the inside cutback that keeps defenses from over playing that outside cuts.

Even plays like a fake FB dive HB pitch. Sub in dual backs, the CPU sees RB1 (power back) at FB- fake dive holds def inside and your RB2 can find room on the edge.

I have had several games where the CPU has stonewalled my running. And several games where it's been almost arcadish. To me it's not about the sliders as much as it is keeping the defense honest.

It makes the games take slightly longer as more time is spent strategizing than is spent quick play calling and quick snapping to get to next play- but for my preference that is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason a 60 minute game takes many hours (I get commercials extend game lol), and a reason teams normally don't hike the ball with 25-30 seconds on the play clock irl.

Idk how you play, and don't mean to insinuate u play any certain way- but hopefully this made some sense and maybe can help you out down the line.
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