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Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Old 02-21-2017, 09:15 AM   #17
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by coach333
How's your playcalling diversity? I've found the AI is aware enough to key on repeated run styles and repeated plays from formations. I have issues when I constantly press an ISO. This normally happens to me second half when I'm trying to eat clock and fatigue the defense. After a successful inside run, calling the same play again in sussecion will normally (for me) backfire with results like you've described.

I find most success in power running when there is a hint of an outside zone presence. To elaborate- my depth will normally consist of a bruiser that can catch (RB1), a jack of all trades and master of little (RB2), and a bigger back with speed, pass blocking, and catching ability as my 3DRB. Many times untill I find the right personnel with depth, my RB1 and 3DRB are the same. I pound the inside with power plays predominantly (ISO, power, trap, dive, etc), but I will conciously add in: inside zone (this is really meant to cut outside, if the def is keying on ur inside game- a well timed inside zone can yield great chunk plays when u find the cut out), outside zone (think reverse or inside zone. The defense is keying in the inside power, but is aware of the zone taking it outside, outside zone sets up the stretch- but affords the inside cutback that keeps defenses from over playing that outside cuts.

Even plays like a fake FB dive HB pitch. Sub in dual backs, the CPU sees RB1 (power back) at FB- fake dive holds def inside and your RB2 can find room on the edge.

I have had several games where the CPU has stonewalled my running. And several games where it's been almost arcadish. To me it's not about the sliders as much as it is keeping the defense honest.

It makes the games take slightly longer as more time is spent strategizing than is spent quick play calling and quick snapping to get to next play- but for my preference that is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason a 60 minute game takes many hours (I get commercials extend game lol), and a reason teams normally don't hike the ball with 25-30 seconds on the play clock irl.

Idk how you play, and don't mean to insinuate u play any certain way- but hopefully this made some sense and maybe can help you out down the line.
I mix up my runs 75% inside as I use balanced or one cut backs. I can run the ball decently overall effectively. It is just the "hb power" plays that I can't seem to get to work. Not power o or other power runs. It may be a glitch specific to me but the guard is pushed back into me just after I get the handoff and I can't get around him.
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Old 02-21-2017, 09:38 AM   #18
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by timhere1970
I mix up my runs 75% inside as I use balanced or one cut backs. I can run the ball decently overall effectively. It is just the "hb power" plays that I can't seem to get to work. Not power o or other power runs. It may be a glitch specific to me but the guard is pushed back into me just after I get the handoff and I can't get around him.
I understand man. I have had that happen as well. Often, but not enough that it's a detriment to the game for me. I'd hope it's not a bug on your end...That'd suck.

Only last suggestion I would have would be something I was/sometimes still am very bad about pulling the RT trigger right away.

Charter was spot on when he said to not speed till in the clear. The RB control becomes so difficult with turbo going, and increasingly so when using turbo behind the line.

People are fascinated with leveon bells style irl- and that's really, to me, video game football. Have to slow and let things developer.

Now with your issue with the OG being blown off the line and disrupting play from the handoff this may not be the fix you need- but def worth a shot if u are like most and turbo from handoff...If the back gets the ball and the OG is in his face- holding turbo will force the RB forward into the block and fall behind the line...But, if RB can get ball and hesitate or go laterally before forward, the play can still go for a positive gain.

It's tough to control (for me) the impulse the "speed" away from defender behind the line, but if the OG is still engaged with the DL then perhaps a slight hesitation and jump step will work you away from danger, and then can hit the whole and power thru?

Might or might not work for you...But that's best I got to try and help lol
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #19
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by coach333
I understand man. I have had that happen as well. Often, but not enough that it's a detriment to the game for me. I'd hope it's not a bug on your end...That'd suck.

Only last suggestion I would have would be something I was/sometimes still am very bad about pulling the RT trigger right away.

Charter was spot on when he said to not speed till in the clear. The RB control becomes so difficult with turbo going, and increasingly so when using turbo behind the line.

People are fascinated with leveon bells style irl- and that's really, to me, video game football. Have to slow and let things developer.

Now with your issue with the OG being blown off the line and disrupting play from the handoff this may not be the fix you need- but def worth a shot if u are like most and turbo from handoff...If the back gets the ball and the OG is in his face- holding turbo will force the RB forward into the block and fall behind the line...But, if RB can get ball and hesitate or go laterally before forward, the play can still go for a positive gain.

It's tough to control (for me) the impulse the "speed" away from defender behind the line, but if the OG is still engaged with the DL then perhaps a slight hesitation and jump step will work you away from danger, and then can hit the whole and power thru?

Might or might not work for you...But that's best I got to try and help lol
Learned early in this year's game not to use turbo early. I only use it when in the open field trying to beat the angle of a pursuing defender or trying to get to the pylon. Over 90% of plays I never touch turbo because it is negating the money I pay those big guys.
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:53 AM   #20
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by timhere1970
Learned early in this year's game not to use turbo early. I only use it when in the open field trying to beat the angle of a pursuing defender or trying to get to the pylon. Over 90% of plays I never touch turbo because it is negating the money I pay those big guys.
Fair. I feel you man. Wish I could offer more insight. Hopefully charter will jump back in with further insight. Sounds like you have the right idea and are doing things that should yield success. :/
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Old 02-21-2017, 10:41 PM   #21
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by timhere1970
Learned early in this year's game not to use turbo early. I only use it when in the open field trying to beat the angle of a pursuing defender or trying to get to the pylon. Over 90% of plays I never touch turbo because it is negating the money I pay those big guys.

100% right..

And I can't back this up with much, but I swear that hitting R2 boosts the defenders and helps them get off blocks..

Either way, it's only usefull to get somewhere in a straight line, even getting to the edge is useless if you get sucked into that slow motion upfield cut
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:39 PM   #22
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Really great summary. Will re-post this in our league Discord for people.

Personnel & play-calling are so key. I sometimes talk to players with a 49 spd / 71 acc guard who can't figure out why they are getting stuffed on counter runs.

A pulling guard or a lineman you expect to get out in space on plays should ideally be ~70 spd, ~80 accel, and ~70 agi. You may not quite hit all 3 of those attributes, but that's your benchmark. Whereas 50 spd 70 accel are fine if their job on 90% of your run plays is: push forward. But as charter said, that's when you need high STR & weight.

I also don't know the degree to which Madden truly weighs Strength or size in straightforward power run plays. I'm an optimist, I still believe it matters, but I've seen the damning evidence that it may not matter much in (very) limited 'testing' on Youtube. But if you get in the habit of looking for it now, even if it's not as impactful as it should be, you will benefit long-term when it becomes more important. That's my glass-half-full.

Madden online CFM players LOVE to stack the box on 1st down. As charter said, coming out in good pass plays on 1st down is your friend here--even if you identify as being a run-first team, you may have to force your opponent to respect your pass first. "Pass-first" doesn't mean you have to run less often, it just means you first establish the passing threat so they get in the 2-deep looks charter mentioned. Another wrinkle to add to this: come out in pass plays out of 2WR formations on 1st down. Guys will see 2 TEs or 2 RBs and assume you're going to run it, stack the box. Profit. That doesn't necessarily mean play action. Even a normal pass out of these formations can be very effective.

Meanwhile, do the opposite on 2nd & 8-10. Come out in a 4WR set and run a draw or an inside zone. No, you usually won't get the 1st down (though occasionally you will!), but a lot of Madden players assume you're passing and will double-down on this assumption when they see a 1 RB 4 WR set. They may only have 5 guys in the middle of the field and you will often get a nice 4-6 yard run from it, setting you up for a much easier 3rd down.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:23 PM   #23
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

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Originally Posted by Fours
All of the posts here are great, it's nice to see players that realize there's more to success than speed bursts and perfectly timed juke spins.

Another way to classify the two most common run game philosophies that are used today are zone and man. This post is to help players better understand why and how to effectively run different schemes. It's not something I would normally explain in a game forum, but surprisingly this is a case where "real life" knowledge can transfer to game success.

I'll keep it dead simple because this post isn't intended to test anyone's depth of understanding, it's just to help moderately advanced football minds who may not have been exposed to higher level OL systems.

Man scheme:

The purpose is to "out gap" the defense. Modern schemes have a defender assigned to each gap and he's expected to hold his gap. The first level(DL) shades(5-edge, 3-field shade Guard, 1-boundary shade Center, 5-edge) are designed to make it impossible for a 5 man line to create an unmanned gap without movement(pull,trap,etc..) to give them the leverage needed to create an undefended gap. Most defenses feel comfortable with their LB's matching the athleticism of moving OL to prevent that which is why you ideally want OL that can displace the DL to block second level flow to the point of attack.

Offensively you are picking a specific hole and attacking it, unless you have undisciplined over-pursuit from a non-gap defense(doesn't exist in madden) there should not be a cut back option for the back. the blocks at the point of attack are the best angles and usually a double team so the chance of successful first level block decreases the farther you get from the point of attack. The OL tries to turn the defenders shoulders and seal him off from controlling that gap or remove him entirely.


Zone scheme:

The offense is now counting on the defenders to maintain gap integrity and in a way allowing them to. The basic principle here is that if the B gap defenders job is to not vacate his gap, then we can bring an OL from a gap "behind"(weakside of the play) to block him. It's most obvious on outside zone, but inside zone is the same thing but with a double team. The zone double team is very different from the man double. Here the idea is that if he sinks(holds his gap) you capture him with the OL from weakside. If he floats(poor integrity, vacates his gap to chase the ball) the playside OL stays on him and the weakside now has space to move up the second level because you guessed it - the float read makes the RB cut back. The benefit of zone is in this simplicity, you're not fighting the DL for his gap all day, and the RB initially has 1 simple read.

For technique the OL doesn't have to displace or turn shoulders, they just need to keep central pressure on the defender and let him choose to sink or float. This is where Madden breaks down for realism, the individual OL don't behave differently for man and zone plays, but their assignments are generally right and you can run zone off the read with great success.

The reason zone is very popular in the NFL today is not because it works better. It's because you don't need huge strong athletes to run it like you do man. You also don't need backs with great vision or tackle breaking ability. When it comes to draft picks and free agents, zone gives great value. That does apply to CFM, but if you have those pieces in place already, man should be more successful.

The most helpful thing about understanding the two systems is that you can see why your running game is failing early in the game and adjust your run calls. If the DL is dominating the LOS, isolate them by running zone. If you're getting great push and it's allowing defenders to leak through big seams, you should be running man.

I hope this helps someone enjoy more success running the ball.. There are many more layers of depth here that I'm happy to dig into if anyone is interested.
yes that is good info. Really power and man blocking are the same. I tried to keep things as much in Madden terms as possible.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:32 PM   #24
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Re: Madden 17 Run Game 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Really great summary. Will re-post this in our league Discord for people.

Personnel & play-calling are so key. I sometimes talk to players with a 49 spd / 71 acc guard who can't figure out why they are getting stuffed on counter runs.

A pulling guard or a lineman you expect to get out in space on plays should ideally be ~70 spd, ~80 accel, and ~70 agi. You may not quite hit all 3 of those attributes, but that's your benchmark. Whereas 50 spd 70 accel are fine if their job on 90% of your run plays is: push forward. But as charter said, that's when you need high STR & weight.

I also don't know the degree to which Madden truly weighs Strength or size in straightforward power run plays. I'm an optimist, I still believe it matters, but I've seen the damning evidence that it may not matter much in (very) limited 'testing' on Youtube. But if you get in the habit of looking for it now, even if it's not as impactful as it should be, you will benefit long-term when it becomes more important. That's my glass-half-full.

Madden online CFM players LOVE to stack the box on 1st down. As charter said, coming out in good pass plays on 1st down is your friend here--even if you identify as being a run-first team, you may have to force your opponent to respect your pass first. "Pass-first" doesn't mean you have to run less often, it just means you first establish the passing threat so they get in the 2-deep looks charter mentioned. Another wrinkle to add to this: come out in pass plays out of 2WR formations on 1st down. Guys will see 2 TEs or 2 RBs and assume you're going to run it, stack the box. Profit. That doesn't necessarily mean play action. Even a normal pass out of these formations can be very effective.

Meanwhile, do the opposite on 2nd & 8-10. Come out in a 4WR set and run a draw or an inside zone. No, you usually won't get the 1st down (though occasionally you will!), but a lot of Madden players assume you're passing and will double-down on this assumption when they see a 1 RB 4 WR set. They may only have 5 guys in the middle of the field and you will often get a nice 4-6 yard run from it, setting you up for a much easier 3rd down.
Weight for sure plays a part. Clint said as much. it's not huge but, it's in the formula. What sold me on it was a guy I follow on Twitter named Zan had a "Fat Five Theory" for mut SC Ranked. Since so many where tanking their lines He figured if you could at least win the weight part of the formula you could still tank.

I started testing this for cfm and I saw a big difference in my run game.

My Rams line in one of the online CFM's I'm in are all huge. I wondered why my run game was better with them than the other cfm I'm in where I had a better ranked Bengals team. The Bengals line was all like 305 or so. The Rams were all 320 or so.

I run a lot of Power/Man to man running. So even though the Bengals line was better in some ratings the Rams line where a lot bigger. So I went all out on my Rams line and picked the biggest line a I could the last 5 games of the season. I was running like never before.

Obviously the weakness is when they have to move or pull a lot but, that is where scheme and play style is important.
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