Madden NFL 18 Video - Vikings vs. Steelers (SimFBallCritic)

[Redog156]

I've been looking at some of those hitting tackle animations in madden for 4 years now. How ballcarrier/defender interactions that don't respect momentum, speed and weight are still occurring in madden is beyond me.

[UltraHD]

Bell is gonna be even more of a beast in this years game.

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by bad_philanthropy

After watching this again and watching the video highlights on NFL.com for the pre-season games this past week as comparison, it feels like the pass rush might be part of the problem of why QB play looks so odd. Not necessarily that blocks are being sustained too long, but that blockers are stoning the defense at the line of scrimmage and the pocket is forming too far up the field. I also checked out some videos of Madden 25, and compared similar pass plays between the two games and the pocket and spacing of the QB and the pass rush and pass blocking seemed closer to each other. Also there seemed to me more overall vertical and horizontal movement between o and d line interactions on a given play. The pictures aren't meant to be conclusive but just to help visualize and spitball about the theory. I feel like the o-line isn't giving enough ground on pass blocking, and the d-line is just getting stuffed too far up the field too often.

I'll go back and rewatch some videos. I'm generally one of the guys who likes to key in on the play in the secondary, but now that you mention it, it does seem like the edge rush is a bit lacking. Not in how often they beat their block, but how well they get upfield. Seems like rushers either get off their block and threaten for the sack or, as you said, they get stonewalled at the LOS.

Having said that, I don't think that is the problem causing statue AI. Maybe the lack of edge rush makes the problem more noticeable, but it would be there anyway.

I think there is just an error in the game's code, like a misplaced decimal or something. NFL QBs do sometimes stand still holding the ball too long resulting in coverage sacks. What we are seeing is just the frequency being way too high.

I also think it would just look a lot better if the game had something like QB Idle Animations. Instead of the QB endlessly bouncing on their toes the game could incorporate small changes like dropping the off hand, pointing, semi pump faking, drifting around in the pocket, etc. Nothing that actually changes the AI, but puts a coat of paint over top to mask it. Not ideal I know, but at this point I'll take it.
I'll see if I can find a good example of what I'm talking about.

[Americas Team]

Another consistency issue is the lack of push from the defensive line. Sometimes their is a push but most of the time the offensive line stone wall's the defensive line, if no pass rush at the very least the defensive line should get a push up front making the Qb have to move in the pocket.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Operation Sports mobile app

[bad_philanthropy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ggsimmonds

I'll go back and rewatch some videos. I'm generally one of the guys who likes to key in on the play in the secondary, but now that you mention it, it does seem like the edge rush is a bit lacking. Not in how often they beat their block, but how well they get upfield. Seems like rushers either get off their block and threaten for the sack or, as you said, they get stonewalled at the LOS. Having said that, I don't think that is the problem causing statue AI. Maybe the lack of edge rush makes the problem more noticeable, but it would be there anyway. I think there is just an error in the game's code, like a misplaced decimal or something. NFL QBs do sometimes stand still holding the ball too long resulting in coverage sacks. What we are seeing is just the frequency being way too high. I also think it would just look a lot better if the game had something like QB Idle Animations. Instead of the QB endlessly bouncing on their toes the game could incorporate small changes like dropping the off hand, pointing, semi pump faking, drifting around in the pocket, etc. Nothing that actually changes the AI, but puts a coat of paint over top to mask it. Not ideal I know, but at this point I'll take it. I'll see if I can find a good example of what I'm talking about.

All good points. I love the "coat of paint" idea.

As I said, I've watched a whole bunch of real passing plays trying to figure out what's wrong. The setup and fire to the primary target on the play is definitely the most common type of passing scenario. Tons and tons of timing routes. Most plays progress way faster than in Madden and I think we're seeing too many plays where the overall play takes too long to develop--especially deep passes. Those plays either need to develop faster, or the QB logic needs to check down faster (maybe a pass rush pressure issue), or the QB needs to take the easy green more often. The overall pace of play development could be, as others have suggested, for the sake of target passing.

There just aren't many moments in the NFL where a QB is standing there bouncing on their toes for an awkward amount of time, even on a play where the o-line puts on an epic pass protection clinic.

EDIT: After going back again and watching the Vikings vs. Steeler video at the beginning of the thread I do think it's tied to pass rush. I'd point anyone interested to the play at 1:10. Look again, two plays later. What do you see?

I'm not saying that I expect the game to play out at the same speed of the NFL, but that play does not credibly represent what NFL football looks like, and it's too common in the videos we've seen.

[Sucram7777]

That "Diving Catch" at 3:45 fam......

I'd rather there be no animation at all and just have the guy called down on contact with defenders once his body hits the turf - than to have him suction back to his feet to help play out a tackle....

And Bridgewater standing around all day and night...

It's things like this that, that make me wish Madden 12 was remastered for the Xbox One.

[coach422001]

Quote: Originally Posted by OhMrHanky

3. I think I know why the QB statue happens from time to time it's our old friend, 4 Verts. Lol. I don't know about every play from every gameplay video where the QB becomes a statue and takes a sack after like 10 seconds of standing there. But, I can tell u in this video, bridgewater absolutely called a 4 verts. Everybody was 'covered,' so he doesn't pass it. Then, maybe because they need too many yards for 1st down, he stays in the pocket to throw no matter what or something. Ultimately, the rush finally gets him and no one gets open because they're all just running deep. It may not only be on 4 verts, but I have a feeling the vast majority might be for old statue of QB play. Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So is the experiment to set up a game with 2 QB of relatively equal scrambling ability, have one team call all 4 Verticals and the other call medium patterns (nothing long) to see if that is the culprit (or a contributor to the issue)? Perhaps start the game that way then half time switch the play calling around?

I can understand to try to get the sack numbers relatively accurate there may be a need for some cases where the QB stand there and take it. The lack of motions though in the pocket just doesn't sit well with me, and again, incorporating some logic so that the QB with open field ahead isn't always looking pass first must be improved. I've tried things in 17 like upping many of the running attributes of the QB and trying to bucket 'elusiveness' (even Eli gets a minimum of 80) but the thing I keep seeing is those first steps of a QB like Wilson, Rodgers, RG3 are as if they are running in wet cement. Yet the defenders are full stride and overtake them much more easily than IRL. It was encouraging to see the Viking QB out run the defense for the score as you may expect in real life. I was just hoping the overall QB in pocket/avoid rush animations would look better than last year and thus far I'm not seeing it. Knowing the causes or contributors to these things though may help us set up our games such that we can all get the experience we want.

[IowaAJ]

I thought the video looked good. Bell's juke was sick completely faked out the defender. I also liked seeing Bell pick up the free guy to allow for the TD pass by Big Ben.