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Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:26 AM   #17
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

I agree with all you said.

There is really nothing to add, since you have video of the problems pretty much everyone is having. I know there will be people who come in here and say oh its fine, you get 65 to 69% completion ratio.

Yes, but my CFM Steelers team is on pace to set a new NFL Sack record for the season. Not 100, not 150, but on pace for 180 sacks. In one season. Thats over 100 more then the current record.

And 70% plus of those sacks have been on the statue QBs, or the dumb scramble.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:53 AM   #18
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

All-Pro Sim 14 min/18 clock 120-130 total plays. Sliders: Pass reaction and coverage 52 for both hum and cpu.

Coverage is better with minor slider tweaks.

Safety play still poor, they continue in backpedal when there is no deep threat. Poor zone recognition when players are entering or in their zones.

An overall tightening of the secondary is needed.

There are no bonuses for smarts or technique when it comes to cornerback play. Brent Grimes is good IRL but too slow to play in Madden. WRs get instant separation. This is due to poor technique and poor change of direction by DBs.

I'm personally getting inaccurate throws from hum and cpu. It does seem random though. I've had Goff carve me up yet I've also shut down Brees.

CPU QBs have to sense pressure better and get rid of the ball. I know we hated it when we'd get the incomplete pass when it appeared to be a sack fumble but I'd prefer that to all of these sacks. And it will help to get completion percentages down.

It is necessary to use all of the tools, i.e. coach adjustments, i.d. the mike, slide protect, pass commit, shading, etc to get the best experience. If you aren't mixing it up on defense and using these tools you will give up 80% passing. Also, know your personnel.

Run commit should not commit your entire secondary especially if there is no play action. DBs responsibility is still pass first.

I'd also like to add that when you play longer quarters there is no need to see every kind of play in almost every game. If you run enough plays you're bound to get a blocked kick, kick or punt return, pick 6, huge breakaway run or deep bomb in almost every game.

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Old 08-30-2017, 10:01 AM   #19
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas
Now that we have a setting that is essentially dedicated to the simulation community, I think it's important as ever that we provide feedback for it in a way that is both as organized and constructive as possible under one roof. I'm really hoping that this can be a place where we can compile a ton of solid and usable feedback with most of the talk being about what to improve or what the setting does well and I really don't want this to be another place for people to pine about how it's pointless because EA will never listen or that they only care about MUT and such. If they don't listen and ignore us all together anyway, then so be it. But as it stands this is the first year we have something like this that without debate is specifically aimed and made for us so while it may not be where we want it to be right now (I know it isn't for me), I believe we hold the power to shape it as well as dictate it's direction moving forward which I think is the most important thing. If you don't choose to believe that, believe me, I completely understand and I'll tell you to not waste your time. But as of right now I'm willing to at least give it a shot moving forward and try to provide the feedback needed to make it the best it can be not only this year, but also moving forward.

A couple of things that I always keep in mind when providing feedback. With anything try to make sure it's based on a fairly significant sample size. Try to base feedback on something like at least 10+ games. If you get sacked 8 times in a game, pass blocking doesn't need to be automatically tuned. I've played 30+ games and have had an extremely wide array of games so don't let one game speak volumes. If you play 10 games and something is consistently popping up or standing out then it makes the feedback much more reliable and valuable. Certain things are obviously legacy issues and I get that but I still feel like sample size is something important with those as well to gage the variance of the issue. If you disagree with someones feedback or aren't experiencing the same issue, explain your experience, what you're seeing, and why you think it might not be an issue. Try to avoid the one-off statements discrediting someone's feedback just because you may not have experienced it. If you agree with it, like their post, quote it and expand upon it, provide more clips regarding the issue, etc. We shouldn't be having debates as much as solid back and forth with the ultimate goal being simulation being the most realistic representation of the NFL possible.

Another thing is to always try and specify what settings you're using. If you're playing on All-Madden, you're going to see some things that aren't necessarily going to fall into "Sim" from the CPU simply because it's made to be that way and override ratings and outcomes to create difficulty. Same with if you're playing on Pro or Rookie. Just try to keep that in mind.

Lastly, try to provide video evidence whenever possible whether it be in the form of clips or GIF's. With Xbox I know that it's easier than ever to record clips and turn them into GIF's. I'm not sure how easy it is on PS4 but I know there is a similar clip recording mechanic there as well so if you're seeing an issue, record it whenever you see it. Not all problems necessarily require this but it quite literally never hurts and only helps immensely to not only be able to discuss your issue but to also have a visual to go along with it.

I'll get it started but before I do I want to mention that I'm not going to mention coverage for a couple of reasons. One, I've already beat it to death pretty good in the impressions thread and then secondly, I feel like that's more of a universal issue with the game and it's supposed to be getting fixed in the next couple weeks so I'll wait until then before I feel comfortable judging anything more in that area. Lastly, I only play vs. CPU so my feedback will be heavily slanted towards that but I'm hoping people in online leagues will post a bunch of H2H feedback based on their experience as well. The more feedback the better.

AI Quarterback Play (Pocket Awareness/Scrambling/Decision Making)

So this has been a hot topic since pre-release and that's AI QB play and I'm going to try and touch on all the issues that I've come across in my time playing.

Pocket Awareness (Statue QB's)

This seems to be the big one. I've seen this repeatedly on both default All-Madden and default All-Pro. Here's a video of what I'm referring to:



So as you can see there, a lot of different types of QB's and just a general lack of awareness all-around to what is happening around them as well as a huge reluctance to even move. I'd like to say these were the only cases but in reality these were just the worst of the worst and this has been extremely common in my time playing. It seems to be the most common on shot plays and verticals or really any play where deep routes are the main focus however I've also seen it on multiple occasions with scat and curls plays where if there's decent coverage initially the QB just doesn't react to it in any way.

Scrambling/QB Movement/Decision Making

So this pretty much goes along side the last issue. When QB's hardly move in the pocket it's safe to expect they won't scramble either and that's been the case for me by-and-large with Madden 18. The additional issue with AI QB play is that when QB's actually do move, it's not exactly intelligently:



To add to this, the CPU seems to have this really odd hangup with the LOS. You could see it in the last video with Winston where he goes to scramble and literally turns around and runs away from it. Here's a few more examples:



This results in a lot of really mind boggling throws by the CPU as well as often a illegal forward pass penalty when there's yardage to be had if they just threw sooner or decided to scramble instead. In this video you can also see a couple good examples of exactly the type of QB movement that I'd like to see a more regular basis. The Luck and Wilson plays where they completed illegal forward passes would be perfect if they scrambled or threw the ball a tad sooner. The problem is plays like that are just so few and far between and then when you do finally get them, that happens.

One last thing regarding this and that's screen passes. This is a smaller issue as screen passes aren't all that common from the CPU and they will run them properly most of the time, however IMO stuff like this should never be happening:



It's a one-read throw and it's either there or it isn't. Barring a freak occurence (which isn't really replicated in Madden), QB's should never be willingly taking sacks on screen passes on my opinion and should either be throwing to the back or chucking it away (or into the ground would be a nice touch). Again, not a huge issue and no where near as common or prevalent as the one's I've listed prior but still something that I'd like to see improved upon in terms of AI QB play.

QB Accuracy

This seems to be the age old Madden problem. Hell, they even named a draft pick in CFM after the issue a few years back. I was hoping that this would be a distinct feature of the Simulation this year but after playing I can say that it isn't the case unfortunately. Whether it's been default All-Madden or default All-Pro, I've noticed that QB's on both sides hardly ever miss. I will say it is better on the user side and you will definitely miss from time to time but as for the CPU, they have far away been pinpoint accurate on both settings. I will also say that I've had good luck with moving the QB accuracy down and getting better results so that's a definite positive. However, I feel like on simulation the goal should be to replicate QB accuracy at the default level and in it's current state I feel like it's a good way away from doing so.

I don't have any videos here just because I don't think it's that necessary for the issue but I do have some data. Over 15 games of default All-Pro both me and the CPU had around 68-69% completion percentage. Now that doesn't sound that bad but from time playing the vast majority of incompletions came on drops by receivers, knockouts or dropped picks and I was lucky to see one or two inaccuracies from the CPU in any given game. On All-Madden it was like once every few games. This is one of those areas where the numbers don't always do a good job of telling the whole story as was the case with Madden 17 where you could get accurate completion percentages but it was largely as a result of a ton of throwaways and throws out of sacks.

What I'd like to see is an accuracy decrease across the board in terms of SAC, MAC, DAC. It seems like no matter who the QB is they are absurdly accurate on anything short no matter what. While I agree this should predominantly be the case, the fact is that QB's still miss these throws and even the best ones miss them. I think there should just be more random misses when using any QB. Obviously a guy like Brady should miss less than a guy like Bortles but overall I think everyone could stand to be off target more than they currently are.

Kick Accuracy

This has been something I've beaten the drum for a while now and did extensive testing with in Madden 17 and now with the Simulation setting there's no reason for this to not be something that is FAR more challenging than it currently is. If you need an example, feel free to waste five minutes of your time watching this Ray Finkle FG Montage:



That's a created Ray Finkle nailing every FG from 60+ yards out with 57 KAC which is as bad as the rating can possibly be without every kick resulting in a shank. Also, ignore the 0 accuracy slider in that video. For some reason that slider is backwards inside practice so all of the kicks were actually on default and if you turn it to anything lower than 35 every kick will result in a shank. But to the video, not one miss at all and not even close to one and with a K that has 20 points less than the worst rated kicker in the game. So that tells me that ratings in the kicking game definitively don't matter on the user side. Now from the testing I did last year, I can say that the ratings did matter for the CPU side but really only from 50+ yards so that could use some work too .

This creates two problems. One, there is essentially no possible chance of a missed XP's outside of a blocked kick. The NFL specifically changed this rule to create just that but in Madden it's like nothing changed. The other is that, as a user, once you're inside FG range whether it be 40-60+ yards, you know there is very little chance of missing a FG unless you do something drastically wrong.

Look at the Lions a couple years ago where they had three different kickers in the first six weeks of the season. Say hello to Blair Walsh and his 27-yard shank job. Did anybody watch the Seahawks-Cardinals thriller last year? Let's not even look further than the last game NFL game that counted. And even when kicks are good, they are far from automatic. Kicking NEEDS to be tough and on the simulation setting having a good or bad kicker NEEDS to matter.

As for a solution, I don't know if it's something that can be tuned but the main problem I see is that there is hardly (if at all) any difference between hitting the accuracy in the light blue area vs. the dark blue "perfect" area. I am adamant that a kick like this should be missed:



44 yards out and I missed the accuracy about as bad as you could without missing it completely and it was still perfect. So the solution:


Dark Blue - Perfect. Kick goes right where you aimed it.
Light Blue - Scaled penalty based on the distance you miss from the perfect area.

On shorter kicks there'd be a larger room for error just because of the shorter distance but on longer kicks you'd pay for missing the meter like in the GIF but if you were close and had a good kicker you'll probably be okay and then on really long kicks would almost certainly be no good if you missed it at all which is how I feel it should be.

Clock Management/Decision Making/CPU Playcalling

Clock Management/Decision Making

So another one of those legacy Madden issues here. I don't have many clips here but I'll talk about what I have:



Okay, so the first clip is where I've noticed the most issues and that's at the end of the first half. I know RyanMoody posted a video that went over this same type of scenario and this first clip is really, really bad. The CPU really lacks an urgency when it comes to the first half winding down. Up until the end here, they were actually doing a decent job and seemed like they were going for points but from my experience if the game is tied or they're ahead at all, they won't show any urgency to score. It will work out for them occasionally because they're not penalized for constantly huddling up or changing personnel but that's besides the point. They have :20 seconds and a timeout from their second to last play and they both let the clock run and then wait until there's two seconds left to snap the ball wasting every opportunity they had at scoring.

Second clip is part one of two and this is a bit more debatable. 2:29 to go and one timeout for me, they run up the middle and I use my last time out. My issue is with the next call. They have an opportunity with two more runs to run the clock down to at the very most 1:20 by just running the ball twice. Instead they throw an incomplete pass on second down which forces them into 3rd and long where even if they run the clock I still get the two minute warning and pretty much a full two minutes to win the game. Again, it's debatable but I'd really like to see them run there and take it to the two minute warning and then decide whether or not to throw on 3rd down. It ended up working out for them as they picked up the first down anyway which brings me to the next clip...

So the third clip, the game is over. 2:00 to go. No timeouts. Three kneels and the game is books. Instead they decide to run on not just first down but second down as well. They don't pay for it and the likelihood is rare that they would but that's basically an opportunity that the CPU is taking to potentially throw the game away. Just take the knees and don't risk anything there.

Last clip is again probably debatable. I've got two timeouts but they're up 15 and in FG range to make it a three score game after the first play and they're still running shot plays. It's just a place where I'd like to see them be a bit more conservative and aware of the situation. The likelihood of them losing because of it is, again, small but it's an opportunity that they're willingly creating themselves when they don't need to. I think the CPU looks at opponents timeouts as too much of a factor in what they're doing and thinks there's a ton of time left when really there isn't plus they're up two scores.

And one more thing smaller thing when it comes to CPU decision making:



This is only one clip but this is something I encountered quite a bit in Madden 17 and have already seen on a few occasions in 18. There's no real need to attempt a 61-yard FG there. I know that the reason why they kick it is because the game is telling them if they hit it perfect they will but the reality is that they pretty much never do and in a game like that where it's been a defensive battle they shouldn't be giving up something as important as field position by doing something like that. In this case it ended up completely changing the face of the entire game from that point and I would like to see the CPU value field position over long FG's like this outside of when it's absolutely necessary like to tie the game late in the fourth or at the end of a game or half.

Playcalling

I won't get into it too much but the main thing I want to touch on is the CPU being more creative on third downs. The amount of times the CPU runs 4 Verts on anything longer than 3rd and 5 is something I'd like to see heavily tweaked if not almost all together eliminated. The CPU has always had issues executing the play well and it is pretty much every single teams go to on a passing 3rd Down situation.

Diving Catches

This is a smaller thing as diving catches aren't very common but one thing that has stuck out to me so far in M18 is that they're never dropped. Every time I've seen one attempted it's been caught and I've seen RB's making them as well as guys with unspectacular spectacular catch ratings. It's been universal as well. I've seen my players make more than a few that I've questioned and said to myself that they shouldn't have caught. I feel like diving catches should be more of a 50/50 thing even for the best players. But honestly, this isn't a huge issue or anything, just something I noticed in my time playing.
Deuce,


1.- Its always a pleasure reading you post because your post are top notch!. posting videos as evidence, very nice, it a pleasure, we can tell you take your time when creating this threads. Very well done!

2.-If they only fix this on madden 2019, i would buy it, some of these issues were in maddden since several years now (Screens sacks for example) but EA keep going year after year without fixing them. Hopefully they patch this for this current version but i doubt it. EA needs to look at this post and that`s all they need to know to get this patch great. The major issues are resume in here.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:03 AM   #20
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazumonk
I know people have been saying that their QB's rarely miss a pass, but that's not been my experience at all. I've been playing on default AM, and my buddy and I have fairly meh QB's. We get misses all the time on short-medium passes. Strangely enough, it seems like the deep balls are more accurate than the short ones despite the ratings.
I was playing on default AP during early access period and noticed QBs missing passes. And I saw the same thing with accuracy short vs deep
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:26 AM   #21
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CPU/Human QB Accuracy is ridiculous for a 'Simulation'

The CPU/Human QB accuracy is the biggest issue I have with Simulation (and one of my biggest issues with Madden year over year). Having an elite quarterback in the NFL is the biggest advantage that any team can have, elite quarterbacks take average teams and bring them to the playoffs year over year; teams without good quarterbacks, even when they have above average teams around them, suffer and rarely go over .500, let alone make the playoffs.

Look at the Colts, Green Bay, New England, the Panthers when Cam was elite 2-3 years ago, and so on, and in every circumstance their teams are dramatically better when their elite QBs are on the field. The New England Patriots were the best team in the NFL last year and the Buffalo Bills were a below average crummy team, and yet in week 4, Buffalo blanked New England 20 - 0 (or around that), because both elite QB Tom Brady and average QB Jimmy Garapollo were out, and below average/average and injured QB Jacoby Brisette was the QB. This offense would go onto be one of the best offenses in the NFL, and this was with Gronk and Dion Lewis, two of the biggest playmakers when they're on the field, and yet, they got blanked, they couldn't move the ball, they rarely got the ball past the 50 yard line.

In Madden, in Simulation mode, on All pro difficulty, QB ratings don't matter, or they matter so little that it's of no consequence. Now, I can understand this in Arcade where you want everybody to be able to move the ball, and even in competitive, where you want player skills to matter more so than the ratings on the field. But in simulation mode, the most important player on the field, the QB, needs to have a wider range of attributes contributing to their play. CPU AI QB DeShaun Kizer, untested rookie QB with relatively low accuracy and low awareness, went 19/20 and 300+ yards against Minnesota in my latest game -- 95% accuracy. This was also with CPU QB Accuracy tuned down to 30, from 50. His only incompletion was a dropped pass, but it was dead on in the receivers hands. Now, part of this was the absolutely horrible zone defense in Simulation, All Pro. Now, maybe Kizer is going to be some elite star in the NFL (I Hope he is), but right now, he shouldn't be. Similarly, Christian Hackenberg -- a guy who very well might be cut by the Jets in a week -- was 16/18, his only two incompletions were an interception and the other an immediate throw away almost seconds after the snap. The throw away was weird QB logic, the interception was because he was too accurate and my DB ran a better route than the WR. Hackenberg might be the worst QB on a roster in the NFL, but his accuracy numbers were almost 90%.

In Simulation mode there is almost no perceived drop off in play between a 99 overall Tom Brady and a 66 overall Christian Hackenberg. You could probably trade Christian Hackenerg for Tom Brady, straight up, and the CPU's production would hardly change on a Christian Hackenberg led Patriots offense. Now, in Arcade and Competitive, whatever, it doesn't really bother me, but in Simulation mode, QB play should be one of the most important factors in the NFL. It's the reason why Minnesota had to sell the farm to get Sam Bradford last year, because having an average/good QB was the difference between being a playoff competing team or being in the basement of the NFL. It's the reason why the Cleveland Browns have not been good for almost 30 years. They draft QBs in every other Draft because they haven't been able to get a good quarterback since Bernie Koczar. It's the reason why Jacksonville is on the verge of rebuilding, after they've dedicated the last 4 years to rebuilding because Blake Bortles has forgotten how to be an NFL Quarterback, and what was a sneaky favorite for winning the AFC South last year (with the assumption Bortles was just in a temporary slump), is now a team that will struggle to finish in the top half of a bad division. Last year, the Oakland Raiders went 12-4 with an excellent high powered offense, they were a favorite for finishing the AFC with the best record and it looked like New England might be traveling to Oakland for the AFC title game... and on one play in week 16, their star young QB broke his leg. On one play their season took a turn, and not only would New England be hosting the AFC title game, Oakland would get bounced in the wild card round by a mediocre Houston team and while Carr made them one of the most fun offenses to watch in the NFL, backup Connor Cook would barely be able to throw over 150 yards in the game.

But in Madden, the talent of CPU QBs doesn't matter. Hackenberg, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Blake Bortles, Ryan Mallett, Derek Carr, Connor Cook, they're all the same. Connor Cook is as like to go 21/24 and 380 yards against Houston as Derek Carr is.

It's the most important position in the NFL, and Madden in simulation mode treats it basically like the punter position where, sure, maybe having an elite punter makes a difference, but the difference between the 65th best punter in the NFL and the 10th best punter in the NFL isn't really that much of a difference. Likewise with how Madden treats QBs in Simulation mode.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:39 AM   #22
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

For me, I've been screaming for years that I want a setting where the players play to their ratings. The whole 'simulation mode' was a major selling point for me. When I buy the game and use default All Madden sliders and Nick Foles go 12-15 (2 INTS and the other incomplete pass as because the receiver ran out of bounds) that is a problem.

Or when I put my punter in as a QB, he, too throws with laser accuracy, that is a problem.

Sorry, but I have to say... I feel duped big time on this one.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:05 AM   #23
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

I totally feel the feedback of bad quarterbacks being too good in madden. I totally understand it should be different and it should be worth it to pay an elite quarterback 25M+/y compared to a rookie. I can really see that it should be different in sim mode, but...

...how would a game look like? I would take it as a given that even in sim mode we will still play the QB, so there are many attributes we are replacing with the human component. The quarterback needs no vision or awareness, because that's user controlled. So basically we have throw power and accuracy (and maybe speed/acceleration if you want a running qb). How do you want to reflect an inaccurate QB?

At first thought - quite easily. Throws should be off a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less), that's clear. Let's say the AI aims at about 50-55% completion for a bad quarterback, so meaning that if you are the perfect gamer behind the QB every 2nd throw will just be off target and maybe an interception - not counting the obvious wrong decisions which happen to most gamers. Even with an elite quarterback about 1/3 of the throws would be off target even for the best gamer. I can't really imagine that this would be fun to most players.

I honestly believe it could be a bit better, but as the QB position is heavily influenced by the gamer it will always be un-sim.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:27 AM   #24
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Duece, whats your injury slider in cfm set at? With it defaulted at 50, its meant for 6 minute quarters. The injury slider has a pretty strong effect on the aggresiveness of the defense, especially from the pass rush. It seems many are playing longer quarters (i dont know why eawhite thought it was a good idea to default it to 6 minute qrtrs) and lowering the injury slider which in turn lessens the aggressiveness of the pass rush and ultimately effects the accuracy of the qb.
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