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Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

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Old 08-30-2017, 11:44 AM   #25
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Wow, fantastic write up. I can't agree more about the field goals. I'm banging 55 yard field goals with ease.

I also am very disappointed in the way they implemented penalties. Even on the settings it says default 50 is what you see everyday in the NFL. This is completely false.

Last edited by JayD; 08-30-2017 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:46 AM   #26
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

I'm getting annoyed with cpu backs always trying to get the edge on stretch plays. They'll never see it's cut off and cut upfield, just stick to one persistant angle toward the sidelines and generally get taken down by the backside pursuit trying to navigate a sea of defenders.

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Old 08-30-2017, 11:47 AM   #27
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaAut
I totally feel the feedback of bad quarterbacks being too good in madden. I totally understand it should be different and it should be worth it to pay an elite quarterback 25M+/y compared to a rookie. I can really see that it should be different in sim mode, but...

...how would a game look like? I would take it as a given that even in sim mode we will still play the QB, so there are many attributes we are replacing with the human component. The quarterback needs no vision or awareness, because that's user controlled. So basically we have throw power and accuracy (and maybe speed/acceleration if you want a running qb). How do you want to reflect an inaccurate QB?

At first thought - quite easily. Throws should be off a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less), that's clear. Let's say the AI aims at about 50-55% completion for a bad quarterback, so meaning that if you are the perfect gamer behind the QB every 2nd throw will just be off target and maybe an interception - not counting the obvious wrong decisions which happen to most gamers. Even with an elite quarterback about 1/3 of the throws would be off target even for the best gamer. I can't really imagine that this would be fun to most players.

I honestly believe it could be a bit better, but as the QB position is heavily influenced by the gamer it will always be un-sim.
The issue with how they have implemented this, and how they implement most things, is that it is over simplified. When they think of QB inaccuracy, their focus area is wrong. If you notice, guys often complain about the inaccuracies as a user because they don't make sense in the context of the situation on the field. Inaccurate passes for the sake of inaccurate passes won't cut it. Yes, there are times when a QB just flat out misses an easy throw, and those should also be represented in the game. However, in Madden, your QB will often miss 5 yard check downs with ZERO pressure and him firmly standing in the pocket with his feet set. That same QB will be getting hit by a 300 pound lineman while running backwards and he'll throw a perfect dart. There are a alot of factors that can influence the accuracy of the throw.

1. Timing
2. Pressure
3. Feet position
4. Mobility/on the run
5. QB ability

It's not as simple as having a rating that randomly hits the dice roll to throw an inaccurate pass. Madden suffers from MASSIVE over simplification with all of its in game mechanics. Everything applies to the lowest common denominator instead of diving into the nitty gritty. That's what leads to the incredible amount of frustration this game can cause. The dev team views it as, "you guys wanted inaccurate passes, now we have them and you're still complaining.". Well - no, it's because it's not done right. Everything is all about the outcome, not whether that outcome makes any sense given the on-field scenario. Outcomes will come out correctly if the process from which those outcomes are generated is built correctly. Currently, it is not.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:50 AM   #28
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

For me, I've been screaming for years that I want a setting where the players play to their ratings. The whole 'simulation mode' was a major selling point for me. When I buy the game and use default All Madden sliders and Nick Foles go 12-15 (2 INTS and the other incomplete pass as because the receiver ran out of bounds) that is a problem.

Or when I put my punter in as a QB, he, too throws with laser accuracy, that is a problem.

Sorry, but I have to say... I feel duped big time on this one.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:43 PM   #29
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaAut
I totally feel the feedback of bad quarterbacks being too good in madden. I totally understand it should be different and it should be worth it to pay an elite quarterback 25M+/y compared to a rookie. I can really see that it should be different in sim mode, but...

...how would a game look like? I would take it as a given that even in sim mode we will still play the QB, so there are many attributes we are replacing with the human component. The quarterback needs no vision or awareness, because that's user controlled. So basically we have throw power and accuracy (and maybe speed/acceleration if you want a running qb). How do you want to reflect an inaccurate QB?

At first thought - quite easily. Throws should be off a bit (sometimes more, sometimes less), that's clear. Let's say the AI aims at about 50-55% completion for a bad quarterback, so meaning that if you are the perfect gamer behind the QB every 2nd throw will just be off target and maybe an interception - not counting the obvious wrong decisions which happen to most gamers. Even with an elite quarterback about 1/3 of the throws would be off target even for the best gamer. I can't really imagine that this would be fun to most players.

I honestly believe it could be a bit better, but as the QB position is heavily influenced by the gamer it will always be un-sim.
I agree that there has to be some nuance to it, but as an example consider how baseball games handle hitting. Typically the batter is human controlled in baseball games, and baseball is a sport where even the best players fail to get on base about 3/5s (60%) of the time, or fail to get a hit 2/3 (66%) of the time. In baseball videogames, there's still usually an edge to the player (other than if you're like me and totally suck at The Show in which case you go 1/20 routinely), but even while the player can perfectly time reading pitches, swing at just the right time, and really learn the nuances of the game, ultimately, most players in the game end up matching their real life counter-parts to some degree. Maybe everythings slightly inflated, so your .240 2nd baseman in real life might be a .265 in the game, and your .320 slugger might be .350 or something, but the idea is that it's still relatively close to reality. Great hitters in real life are typically great hitters in the game, guys who manufacture runs with slap singles and small ball are best used in that way in the game. Counter this to Madden where Christian Hackenberg is as likely to pick you apart as Tom Brady is, or DeShaun Kizer is as likely to throw 40-yard dimes as Matt Ryan is.

Baseball is really tough to get right. For instance, a batter's eye is one of the most important factors of how good the batter will be. Many famous baseball players, like Jim Rice, lost their vision later in their careers and couldn't detect pitches anymore. And, obviously, the player is looking at a TV screen in a baseball game, and yet, despite all of this nuance in the pitcher v. batter relationship, baseball videogames have replicated hit accuracy fairly well... Not perfect of course, but much better than how Madden handles QB accuracy.

So, likewise, you'll never truly get a perfect simulation, elsewise we'd just play Front Office Football and let the stats play out for themselves, but right now, they're so far from simulation with how QB's play it's an insult to calling it a "simulation mode." You should feel the pain of not having a good QB... If Christian Hackenberg is your QB, you should have to change your gameplan to be competitive. But, as it is now, you really don't have to. The next step after that is to advance the AI so that they can identify your player's weaknesses and attack that... As it is today, the CPU defense plays the same way whether you're Derek Carr or Connor Cook, and we obviously know that's not how NFL defenses work. That is a much harder thing for EA to accomplish so I don't really fault them as much, and also because it's important to just get that first step figured out. First, make CPU QBs play more realistically to their attributes, second make human QBs play more realistically but it's okay if there's some control given to the human because that's tough to avoid.

Last edited by Rebel10; 08-30-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:57 PM   #30
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadman
Duece;

Are you specifying CFM or Play Now or both?

The reason I ask is because based on past years results, CFM test out differently vs Play Now and vice versa.

And for Pete's sake, if you don't have the game, ignore this thread like the plague, please. Like Duece stated, at least 10 games under your belt.

I'll chime in later in the week, it's been a helter skelter personal schedule.
Whichever. It's just for general simulation feedback so if that's something anybody feels like should be specified with their feedback then I don't see anything wrong with including it. Personally, I haven't seen or noticed any difference in gameplay between Play Now and CFM in a few Maddens now which is why I didn't mention it but I know that it's something that's still believed in. Everything I mentioned in the OP though was based on games I played in Play Now.
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:18 PM   #31
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by dman08
My last issue is something that you didn't bring up. Penalties! Now I use to adjust penalties until I saw a realistic number per game for penalty yardage. However, recently I've come to realize that adjusting these affects the gameplay negatively. The game plays so much better with penalties at default but you'll rarely ever see penalties called. With them currently at default I only see false starts being called (for some reason only against my team). We definitely need more penalties on default so that we don't have to sacrifice gameplay by adjusting those numbers. I wanna see 30-60 yards of penalties for each team per game. Holding should be the most called penalty followed by false starts. We finally have wr/db interactions down field but how is it SIM if there's never any pass interference calls? We definitely need more penalties on default.
Yes! I knew I was going to miss something and thank you for bringing this up. I don't know what happened to them but it seems like they've been virtually eliminated compared to when they were introduced a few years ago. Playing full 15-minute games and being lucky to see maybe one or two per game has been my experience. I bumped them up a bit to what I was using on M17 and it still seems like all I see is facemask. I still haven't seen a DPI and I've played a few games with it at 70 now.

I actually have a couple clips that I was going to include in the OP but I wanted this thread to be more about feedback than like a wishlist and this is something I doubt they could implement through a patch but:





Illegal contact! In those scenarios the animations look really awkward but it'd still be something nice to have with a simulation setting.
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:19 PM   #32
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Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

What a writeup! Agree with everything.
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