Madden's future of CFM is alarming

[extremeskins04]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Where did I say you were ES? Careful, I'll start calling you EA instead.lol

Fair enough lol.

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by T4VERTS

Clint stated this year in our interview that his single biggest desired feature is to improve CPU AI. Specifically he'd like to see better adaptive AI for CPU that can better understand situations and recognize patters on offense and defense.

I would love to see Clint, with his activity on Twitter, actively engage the User vs CPU crowd concerning the MOST important aspects of CPU AI that needs addressing.

My perception is that there are no developers, or so called "heavyweights" in the community who can really move the needle on CPU improvements. Even you guys who interview the devs really don't ever ask really detailed and direct question about the CPU AI issues. It's always so User vs User centric even amongst people are are sim oriented. I know the answer, but I'd still like to see if they would actually answer questions about why fixing CPU AI is such a low priority for them.

[T4VERTS]

Quote: Originally Posted by extremeskins04

I'd be good with 3-5 CFM features from Deuce's post along with a big improvement to the CPU AI especially QB's. I just want confidence in this company's ability to implement these features as well as their willingness too even if it doesn't make them extra cash. I want to see them not just be in it for the $$$ but also take care of their offline loyal base as well.

Very few of the designers and developers are worried about the money. The reality is most are gamers themselves who want to build a game they'd want to play. They are not blind to their shortcomings but are attempting to do the best they can inside the real world parameters they work within.

I know we have some developers of other games here and they can explain it better. The gist of it is though, everything normal people think should be a quick fix tends to be far more complex and requiring more time than you can guess. When you realize that development hours are not infinite, they are a finite resource (especially in a yearly release) and so you have to pick and choose what you can realistically do.

Massive games like Madden have millions and millions of lines of code that affect hundreds of different systems within the game. Changes to one can cause unforeseen issues in others that then must be fixed and that time doesn't come out of thin air it comes out of other development time. We look at things in very large scale, for instance "fix wind in CFM" seems like an easy fix. The reality is there are multiple systems in play there encompassing different teams that require each to do work. .

I am actually in a train of though that believes that Madden has become too large to be a yearly release game. It has so many games within the game that require very different focuses from a development standpoint. Think about this for a second, NBA 2k and The Show both had around 12 patches last release. Everyone points to Madden releasing a "broke" game, but I continue to contend the release cycle for sports games is unsustainable for developers to deliver a product that meets their consumers expectations on release. I am not trying to absolve EA and Madden of blame, I am trying to say that the whole genre of sports titles needs to re evaluate what is actually possible.

[extremeskins04]

Quote: Originally Posted by T4VERTS

Very few of the designers and developers are worried about the money. The reality is most are gamers themselves who want to build a game they'd want to play. They are not blind to their shortcomings but are attempting to do the best they can inside the real world parameters they work within. I know we have some developers of other games here and they can explain it better. The gist of it is though, everything normal people think should be a quick fix tends to be far more complex and requiring more time than you can guess. When you realize that development hours are not infinite, they are a finite resource (especially in a yearly release) and so you have to pick and choose what you can realistically do. Massive games like Madden have millions and millions of lines of code that affect hundreds of different systems within the game. Changes to one can cause unforeseen issues in others that then must be fixed and that time doesn't come out of thin air it comes out of other development time. We look at things in very large scale, for instance "fix wind in CFM" seems like an easy fix. The reality is there are multiple systems in play there encompassing different teams that require each to do work. . I am actually in a train of though that believes that Madden has become too large to be a yearly release game. It has so many games within the game that require very different focuses from a development standpoint. Think about this for a second, NBA 2k and The Show both had around 12 patches last release. Everyone points to Madden releasing a "broke" game, but I continue to contend the release cycle for sports games is unsustainable for developers to deliver a product that meets their consumers expectations on release. I am not trying to absolve EA and Madden of blame, I am trying to say that the whole genre of sports titles needs to re evaluate what is actually possible.

I agree with this post Verts. I would love Madden to be an every other year release but they won't do this because of the capital to be gained through MUT every year. Also, the online and competitive community won't want this either.

Also, even if the devs and designers don't really care about the money, the suits do and they won't do an every other year release to have more time to implement the offline CFM features and the gameplay features we want.

[T4VERTS]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

I would love to see Clint, with his activity on Twitter, actively engage the User vs CPU crowd concerning the MOST important aspects of CPU AI that needs addressing. My perception is that there are no developers, or so called "heavyweights" in the community who can really move the needle on CPU improvements. Even you guys who interview the devs really don't ever ask really detailed and direct question about the CPU AI issues. It's always so User vs User centric even amongst people are are sim oriented. I know the answer, but I'd still like to see if they would actually answer questions about why fixing CPU AI is such a low priority for them.

I do apologize on this front as it is one of my flaws. I tend to talk about what I know, and what I know is user vs user interactions and the AI as it pertains to this. I am going to be doing an interview with Jake Stein soon who is part of the MUT team. I am not real well versed in MUT but trying to expand my reach of who and what I interview on ( I did interview him last year, but knew little about what we were talking about).

The reason I bring all of this up, I want to talk to Jake about how MUT is actually delivering a well balanced experience for those who wish to play user vs user as well as user vs CPU. Their weekend leagues this year have been a hit, but the under mentioned side is the gauntlet unleashed promotion which is basically the weekend league's of User vs CPU. I want to dive into that teams thought process on delivering a quality experience for those who don't necessarily wish to interact with others online. I think that mindset could go along way for the solo CFM guys.

[scitychamps87]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

I would love to see Clint, with his activity on Twitter, actively engage the User vs CPU crowd concerning the MOST important aspects of CPU AI that needs addressing. My perception is that there are no developers, or so called "heavyweights" in the community who can really move the needle on CPU improvements. Even you guys who interview the devs really don't ever ask really detailed and direct question about the CPU AI issues. It's always so User vs User centric even amongst people are are sim oriented. I know the answer, but I'd still like to see if they would actually answer questions about why fixing CPU AI is such a low priority for them.

The USER v. CPU crowd definitely needs its voice heard. There are some glaring AI issues especially on offense which I tend to call the lack of a "killer instinct" on drives. Most AI QBs in the game, especially on default sim All-Pro, tend to check down too much. Also, another glaring AI issue seems to be picking up blitzes from users. I can stuff the run on nearly every single play against the CPU. I'd love to see the CPU make use of the same tools we use as users (e.g. ID the Mike). This is something that has actually been one of the bright spots of the NHL series in recent years. The AI in NHL leverages the same dekes that the user uses. Albeit, that game has its own issues. Hopefully, in the long term, once every single EA game is on Frostbite some efforts can be taken to improving the AI in addition to depth of features. I think these things are coming, based on the devs (Clint and Rex seem like very passionate guys even if they don't perfectly represent the sim community every minute of the day), probably just not as soon as we would like.

[teeteegardner]

not surprising they don't even test it.. its really ashame... I have no hope for Madden. I just wish we all could have someone else try and make a NFL game. it doesn't have to be 2k. anyone...lol... EA Sports has really become a crappy brand. If it wasn't for Battlefield where would EA be?

[mykelmosinee]

Quote: Originally Posted by T4VERTS

Very few of the designers and developers are worried about the money. The reality is most are gamers themselves who want to build a game they'd want to play. They are not blind to their shortcomings but are attempting to do the best they can inside the real world parameters they work within. I know we have some developers of other games here and they can explain it better. The gist of it is though, everything normal people think should be a quick fix tends to be far more complex and requiring more time than you can guess. When you realize that development hours are not infinite, they are a finite resource (especially in a yearly release) and so you have to pick and choose what you can realistically do. Massive games like Madden have millions and millions of lines of code that affect hundreds of different systems within the game. Changes to one can cause unforeseen issues in others that then must be fixed and that time doesn't come out of thin air it comes out of other development time. We look at things in very large scale, for instance "fix wind in CFM" seems like an easy fix. The reality is there are multiple systems in play there encompassing different teams that require each to do work. . I am actually in a train of though that believes that Madden has become too large to be a yearly release game. It has so many games within the game that require very different focuses from a development standpoint. Think about this for a second, NBA 2k and The Show both had around 12 patches last release. Everyone points to Madden releasing a "broke" game, but I continue to contend the release cycle for sports games is unsustainable for developers to deliver a product that meets their consumers expectations on release. I am not trying to absolve EA and Madden of blame, I am trying to say that the whole genre of sports titles needs to re evaluate what is actually possible.

And yet, EA put out how many patches? The fact that they do so little to fix all that is broken, while being a huge company, is telling.
The "other companies" spend MORE money developing their sports games, do FAR more communication with their customers, and keep a steady stream of fixes for known problems.
EA mostly disappears (except some Twitter interactions) as soon as the game released...then we wait, many times for MONTHS, before we finally maybe have what we SHOULD have had the day we purchased their game. And a lot of the issues don't ever get fixed.
And it becomes rinse and repeat, to the point where this has somehow become ACCEPTABLE to the point where people are even defending this?? It's crazy.
The people that continue to accept this and get pissed off when people call EA out on it, are exactly why it continues.

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