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Special abilities in Madden

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View Poll Results: Special abilities in future Madden
Yea 12 38.71%
Maybe if implemented correctly 15 48.39%
No 4 12.90%
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:43 PM   #17
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
You're viewpoint is ignorant. (I'm just saying you didn't understand where he is coming from with those terms)

2K's "Laser Arm" just meant the quarterback had the ability to throw the ball at a different trajectory because he was given a different set of animations. Maybe the name was corny, the actual mechanic was legitimate. It allowed you to throw the ball into tight windows. If you did not have a quarterback with that ability, you could not throw into that window with enough speed to ensure the play being made. Dan Marino was a nightmare in 2K8 because in addition to his "Laser Arm" ability, he had "Quick Release" as well. If you didn't get pressure on him immediately, he was going to tear into your ***.
That's release speed. I like release speed, as long as it is done realistically.

None the less, that is NOT what it was in 2K8, which of course makes your viewpoint look like the ignorant one (I'm just saying you're misremembering what Laser Arm was).

From the definition of the game.
"Laser Arm — Pinpoint accuracy with QB charge."

You hold a button to charge it, which defeats the entire purpose of a fast release. Moreover, it's about accuracy, not just release speed, even if it came with a faster release (haven't played in years).



Nevertheless, if you just mean "fast release," I am okay with that. However, that does not excuse these (most of which were gimmicks to sell 2K8):



Cadence (as if every QB in the NFL doesn't have that- hopefully no explanation needed).


Break away burst. HELL TO THE NO. That would turn the game into an arcade game. Spd/acc/agi are plenty for that. That's just a gimmick used to sell 2K8. In real life Jerry Rice didn't suddenly become faster when he got the ball. He just ran in efficient vectors toward the goal line and wasted no movement (life long 49er fan, trust me on this). Rice didn't magically get faster with the ball in his hands. He just was always efficient in his movement, and when he caught the ball, he instantly turned up field, he had great vision, and he took the shortest path to the goal line every time.



Ball Hawk? Already got that trait it's called the play the pass aggressive trait. But getting fumbles? No. There is no such thing. Fumbles are a matter of luck and hustle, not some sixth sense. Almost all of the top fumble recoverers in NFL history are quarterbacks. The all time DEFENSIVE leader in recovered fumbles averaged less than 2 recoveries per season (Rod Woodson). This is not a real trait, and as such it should not be in the game. "Nose for the ball" is a myth when it comes to fumble recoveries. You just have to play a position where you have a good shot at seeing the fumble (QB, DE, S), or play in the right scheme (a mostly zone defense), have hustle, and get lucky.

As for stripping the ball, that's already a trait in Madden.

If instead you mean Ball Hawk as a defender who gets a lot of INTs, first of all, defensive backs who have great INT years tend to regress to the mean the next season, because again, there is an element of luck to it (as well as QBs avoiding you). But even more, actual guys with a "nose for the ball" in the defensive backfield are just players who understand the game and opposing offenses. That is, they also have a "nose for play calls," a "nose for formations," a "nose for routes" and so on. In other words, they just have a high awareness and high play recognition, to go with their high coverage skills.

So again, no need for a trait other than what is already there (aggressive, balanced, conservative).



Closing speed- That should NOT be a special ability. That should be a rating (and already is: pursuit and awareness), and if you mean in coverage, awareness and spd/acc/agi along with the coverage rating is all you need for that.


Route God - Why? We have a route running rating.


Quick Feet - Why? We have acceleration and agility for that.




Almost all of these are redundant and some of them will turn the game into an arcade game.



I'll say it again: the only "special traits" that are needed are ones for things that exist in the NFL but not in Madden (differential release speeds for qbs), and only if those things make little sense as a 0-99 rating (like release speed, as the differentials in release speed are not that great with respect to the size of a second).

And of course, there already are traits in the game (strip ball, playing passes aggressively, etc, penalty discipline and so on).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
----

Madden 08 introduced weapons but the animations did not differentiate enough imo. 2K's abilities gave a player a more efficient animation. One specific one I can think of is the Stiff Arm. A player who had that ability was able to put one out there that was not only effective but it was FAST. He would get rid of the defender while the normal stiff arm was effective but the animation was longer.

The problem with this development team, historically, is they haven't proven they can create this type of gameplay in a fundamentally practical sense. I have no doubt they could Mo-Cap some incredible interaction animations, but would they make sense in the scenarios where they play out.

In 2K you weren't going to stiff arm anyone, even if you had the ability, if your ball carrier didn't have a head of steam. In Madden, given the dice roll, your player would be capable of that in ANY situation.

It is something Madden desperately needs, but it doesn't think on a level deep enough to warrant it, yet. At least IMO.
This is a fair point, but there is absolutely no need for arcade-style gimmicky abilities to fix this.

For animations, they can just include more animation styles for every position, and have some of them matter in the game (quarterback release comes to mind, or a power back versus a more agile back). But really, ratins can address almost all of these things. Diversifying animations is another issue.
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Old 01-21-2018, 08:06 PM   #18
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
That's release speed. I like release speed, as long as it is done realistically.

None the less, that is NOT what it was in 2K8, which of course makes your viewpoint look like the ignorant one (I'm just saying you're misremembering what Laser Arm was).

From the definition of the game.
"Laser Arm — Pinpoint accuracy with QB charge."

You hold a button to charge it, which defeats the entire purpose of a fast release. Moreover, it's about accuracy, not just release speed, even if it came with a faster release (haven't played in years).



Nevertheless, if you just mean "fast release," I am okay with that. However, that does not excuse these (most of which were gimmicks to sell 2K8):



Cadence (as if every QB in the NFL doesn't have that- hopefully no explanation needed).


Break away burst. HELL TO THE NO. That would turn the game into an arcade game. Spd/acc/agi are plenty for that. That's just a gimmick used to sell 2K8. In real life Jerry Rice didn't suddenly become faster when he got the ball. He just ran in efficient vectors toward the goal line and wasted no movement (life long 49er fan, trust me on this). Rice didn't magically get faster with the ball in his hands. He just was always efficient in his movement, and when he caught the ball, he instantly turned up field, he had great vision, and he took the shortest path to the goal line every time.



Ball Hawk? Already got that trait it's called the play the pass aggressive trait. But getting fumbles? No. There is no such thing. Fumbles are a matter of luck and hustle, not some sixth sense. Almost all of the top fumble recoverers in NFL history are quarterbacks. The all time DEFENSIVE leader in recovered fumbles averaged less than 2 recoveries per season (Rod Woodson). This is not a real trait, and as such it should not be in the game. "Nose for the ball" is a myth when it comes to fumble recoveries. You just have to play a position where you have a good shot at seeing the fumble (QB, DE, S), or play in the right scheme (a mostly zone defense), have hustle, and get lucky.

As for stripping the ball, that's already a trait in Madden.

If instead you mean Ball Hawk as a defender who gets a lot of INTs, first of all, defensive backs who have great INT years tend to regress to the mean the next season, because again, there is an element of luck to it (as well as QBs avoiding you). But even more, actual guys with a "nose for the ball" in the defensive backfield are just players who understand the game and opposing offenses. That is, they also have a "nose for play calls," a "nose for formations," a "nose for routes" and so on. In other words, they just have a high awareness and high play recognition, to go with their high coverage skills.

So again, no need for a trait other than what is already there (aggressive, balanced, conservative).



Closing speed- That should NOT be a special ability. That should be a rating (and already is: pursuit and awareness), and if you mean in coverage, awareness and spd/acc/agi along with the coverage rating is all you need for that.


Route God - Why? We have a route running rating.


Quick Feet - Why? We have acceleration and agility for that.




Almost all of these are redundant and some of them will turn the game into an arcade game.



I'll say it again: the only "special traits" that are needed are ones for things that exist in the NFL but not in Madden (differential release speeds for qbs), and only if those things make little sense as a 0-99 rating (like release speed, as the differentials in release speed are not that great with respect to the size of a second).

And of course, there already are traits in the game (strip ball, playing passes aggressively, etc, penalty discipline and so on).





This is a fair point, but there is absolutely no need for arcade-style gimmicky abilities to fix this.

For animations, they can just include more animation styles for every position, and have some of them matter in the game (quarterback release comes to mind, or a power back versus a more agile back). But really, ratins can address almost all of these things. Diversifying animations is another issue.
Route running rating & the agility ratings do not mean that much in Madden.
We already have 3 games mode to differentiate the game styles so the arcade argument doesn’t hold too much weight
If they spread the ratings out & use the full 1-10 scale & tie them to ratings & add true signature styles it wouldn’t work
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Old 01-21-2018, 09:58 PM   #19
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIEFxxROCKEM
Route running rating & the agility ratings do not mean that much in Madden.
We already have 3 games mode to differentiate the game styles so the arcade argument doesn’t hold too much weight
If they spread the ratings out & use the full 1-10 scale & tie them to ratings & add true signature styles it wouldn’t work

You are implying that somehow adding a trait icon on the front end in some way increases the amount of animations the CPU has to choose from ...that's not the case ..those animations would need to be added to the game ....
If they added more animations ( running animations in general) it wouldnt really matter what rating system was used ...you would see more variety and greater differences between players

It's the lack of animations in the game that causes players to appear so similar not the rating system

Adding a second level of grading where a rating
already exists makes little or no sense from a realism point of view... if a player has a 95 in a specific rating ...and another a 75 there should be a logic behind that differential ... that adding 3 stars to the 75 or whatever shouldn't be able to override or counter
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:32 PM   #20
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
That's release speed. I like release speed, as long as it is done realistically.

None the less, that is NOT what it was in 2K8, which of course makes your viewpoint look like the ignorant one (I'm just saying you're misremembering what Laser Arm was).

From the definition of the game.
"Laser Arm — Pinpoint accuracy with QB charge."

You hold a button to charge it, which defeats the entire purpose of a fast release. Moreover, it's about accuracy, not just release speed, even if it came with a faster release (haven't played in years).
What the hell are you even talking about?

Quick release and Laser arm were two entirely different abilities with different sets of animations. Don't get butthurt.


(Notice how "Laser Arm" has a laser going straight through the number, illustrating a trajectory similar to a laser? Take another second to look at the illustration of quick release, and further - the description)

Marino was a nightmare because he had BOTH abilities, and iirc quick release was not a "chargeable" animation - the player either had it or they didn't.

Last edited by Thunderhorse; 01-21-2018 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:46 PM   #21
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Just to further this, in APF all players within position groups essentially had the same base ratings. The only thing that differentiated them was their abilities.

James Lofton, Jerry Rice, Biletnikoff, Berry - They all essentially had the same physical ratings. Their differentiating features were their abilities. Rice was the best WR in the game because he had the widest skill set. In comparison, a WR like Lofton was still great but only truly effective as a deep threat, while a WR like Berry was a great possession WR.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:13 AM   #22
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

Ball Hawk? Already got that trait it's called the play the pass aggressive trait. But getting fumbles? No. There is no such thing. Fumbles are a matter of luck and hustle, not some sixth sense. Almost all of the top fumble recoverers in NFL history are quarterbacks. The all time DEFENSIVE leader in recovered fumbles averaged less than 2 recoveries per season (Rod Woodson). This is not a real trait, and as such it should not be in the game. "Nose for the ball" is a myth when it comes to fumble recoveries. You just have to play a position where you have a good shot at seeing the fumble (QB, DE, S), or play in the right scheme (a mostly zone defense), have hustle, and get lucky.
This is actually hilarious. I can tell you never put any real time in this game but you are acting like you have. It's obvious because what you are saying just isn't true.

Ball hawk gave a defender a different set of animations while playing a PASS in the air. They could highpoint the ball in a different way than defenders without the ability. Playing the ball 'aggressive' in Madden means your DB will get a better dice roll on contested passes and potential INT's. It's not the same thing.

'Loose Ball Magnet' was probably a pretty weak ability. I would usually give it to a Bronze CAP who I would use to block punts or play in the slot to catch tipped passes.

As I said in the previous post. If you understood how the game worked under the hood, you would understand why the abilities existed in the first place. Every player was essentially the same physically (Speed/Strength/ETC.), with minimal variance, within their tier and respective position group. I believe they hid this from the user because they didn't want people getting caught up in one players speed or agility rating vs. another's; They just wanted the user to worry about what the player's ability actually allowed them to do.

Of course Madden is not constructed in this way. They are entirely dependant on numerical ratings, and that is why they have trouble illustrating differences between players. In addition to that, you have a game with minimal fundamental mechanics. For example, how can the product possibly differentiate between the pass rusher that wins his battle with a speed rush, vs. one who uses a spin move, vs. the rip, vs. the bull rush, vs. the swim, vs. the club, when there are only 2 methods of engaging an offensive lineman (Power move/Finesse move).
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:21 AM   #23
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIEFxxROCKEM
Route running rating & the agility ratings do not mean that much in Madden.
We already have 3 games mode to differentiate the game styles so the arcade argument doesn’t hold too much weight
If they spread the ratings out & use the full 1-10 scale & tie them to ratings & add true signature styles it wouldn’t work
(a) What difficulty are you playing on? Route running makes a huge difference on All Madden. It gets the WR open for a split second longer.

(b) Why does improving route running require and arcade ability that has such little variance? Why couldn't they just improve how the ratings work?

(c) How does adding arcade abilities not make the game arcade?

(d) Why do signature animations styles require arcade abilities (such as Break Away Burst)?
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Old 01-22-2018, 03:31 AM   #24
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Re: Special abilities in Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
This is actually hilarious. I can tell you never put any real time in this game but you are acting like you have. It's obvious because what you are saying just isn't true.
I have. It's just been about 7 years since I played All Pro 2K8. The point I am making is that it isn't REALISTIC.

Maybe for 2008 that was good. This is 2018. And several of those things were ridiculously arcady (I notice you didn't comment on most of them. No comments on Break Away Burst, the most arcade of all of them?).


There are better solutions than adding all these Back of the Box gimmicks. I provide an example at the end regarding pass rush.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse

Ball hawk gave a defender a different set of animations while playing a PASS in the air. They could highpoint the ball in a different way than defenders without the ability. Playing the ball 'aggressive' in Madden means your DB will get a better dice roll on contested passes and potential INT's. It's not the same thing.
I was arguing generally about this kind of thing, not the specific 2K8 one.

It is NOT REALISTIC for only certain players to have the ability to play the ball. Some are better than others, and that is what ratings are for. But a binary situation where either you have the ability or not? That is very arcade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
'Loose Ball Magnet' was probably a pretty weak ability. I would usually give it to a Bronze CAP who I would use to block punts or play in the slot to catch tipped passes.
That is even more unrealistic than almost all of these. There is no such thing in real football as a "Loose Ball Magnet," as I pointed out by mentioning that almost all the top fumble recoverers in NFL history are QBs, and the best one ever only recovered 1.88 per season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse

As I said in the previous post. If you understood how the game worked under the hood, you would understand why the abilities existed in the first place. Every player was essentially the same physically (Speed/Strength/ETC.), with minimal variance, within their tier and respective position group. I believe they hid this from the user because they didn't want people getting caught up in one players speed or agility rating vs. another's; They just wanted the user to worry about what the player's ability actually allowed them to do.
And this was exceedingly unrealistic. Why would you want to make Madden even less realistic?

Hiding ratings is one thing. But in real life people have an idea about physical ability due to combine scores and other means. But everyone having the same abilities minus arcade bonuses? That is super lame. Ultimately this is code, and you have either the option of everyone having the same physical abilities (the LEAST realistic option) or having a numerical differential. Hiding those ratings is reasonable (but, again, in real life scouting services have a pretty good idea about who is faster than whom). But just making everyone the same and adding a few perks to differentiate? That's insanely unrealistic and is a huge step backward.

Not to repeat the theme of this post, but there is a better way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhorse
Of course Madden is not constructed in this way. They are entirely dependant on numerical ratings, and that is why they have trouble illustrating differences between players. In addition to that, you have a game with minimal fundamental mechanics. For example, how can the product possibly differentiate between the pass rusher that wins his battle with a speed rush, vs. one who uses a spin move, vs. the rip, vs. the bull rush, vs. the swim, vs. the club, when there are only 2 methods of engaging an offensive lineman (Power move/Finesse move).
Adding abilities is not how you solve that problem.

You solve that problem by adding pass rush moves the player controls, by adding player control directing of the player they engage, and making success depend on ratings (which may or may not be hidden to a certain degree) and momentum. Allow the player to attempt to knife between a double team; allow the player to perform a club followed by a rip move; allow the player the ability to lean and go low around the edge.

This can all be done by mapping buttons to the moves and directions you press (and of course must be dependent upon ratings to a certain extent).


Abilities is like putting a band aid on a gun shot wound. There are much better ways to solve these problems.




NOTE: I'm all for UNCERTAINTY in ratings (as in, we know one WR is better at route running than another, but we may not be able to breaking it down in a 0-100 differential; but scouting services certainly do this, although there is a degree of uncertainty). Having five speeds, for example, is really stupid. Having a 0-100 is okay, as long as there is a +/- uncertainty attached to it (this would be the most realistic option). Alternatively, physical ratings can just be represented by combine scores.

But there is absolutely no reason to REMOVE ratings entirely and just have perks. That would be taking the game in the opposite direction of realism.

Last edited by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞; 01-22-2018 at 03:37 AM.
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