Home

DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

This is a discussion on DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM within the Madden NFL Football forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football
eFootball 2022 Review
FIFA 22 Review
Hot Wheels: Unleashed Review
Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-25-2018, 02:41 PM   #9
Pro
 
triplechin's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Jul 2010
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMJOHNS18
Perhaps you could have a dual rating system, True and Perceived OVR.

True OVR - The actual ratings of the player. These are behind the scenes and govern what the player is capable of.

Perceived OVR - This is what we see. It takes a players True OVR and distorts it based on a number of factors. Production, confidence, coaching support, time in system, personality, you name it... basically the OVR can be skewed positively or negatively based on surrounding influences.

Idea here being that the True OVR is never touched by the user, we don't see it, we can't change it, nothing we do really impacts it. A potential and progression curve is randomly assigned and that is that.

Meanwhile, every little thing impacts the Perceived OVR. Awards, stats, schemes, everything plays a role in how players are viewed. The roster becomes more fluid and every CFM is different.

Guys who perform well during contract seasons get big paydays. Sure he may only be the third-best TE on your team, but he's paid like a #1.

Players who excel in one teams system may tank in another. Ouch, shouldn't have given him that multi-year deal.

The greatest QB in the history of the game, or would be greatest, never plays a snap. He was a late round prospect who never even played in a preseason game. Sits in FA with a 60 Perceived OVR.... while his True OVR is 90. Hangs around a season or two, then retires.

Anything could happen, each CFM takes a different path. And no more XP
I like the general idea but I feel like this is a layer of complexity for something that feels so far down the road at this point. We have so much of the foundation to rebuild before these things can really make an impact I think
__________________
51 & 55

FRANCHISE OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html

PROGRESSION OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html
triplechin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 02:53 PM   #10
Pro
 
Devaster's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Dec 2008
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gritblitzer
What's puzzing is I remember on Madden 07 or 08, ratings did change in CFM (single player of course) based on performances that you're players put in. This is what has always bothered me with this move that we've seen that puts CFM mode more toward somewhat of a RPG where you increase the ratings yourself. I've aways felt like being able to control your own ratings was just weird to me.

I get that you earn XP based on performances, but to me, ratings NEED to be more fluid and you need to see the ups and downs from week to week in order to see a season of results that looks more closely to what we see in the NFL.
There used to be a production grade based on a player's season/career performance that factored into their OVR in CFM. I think that might be gone now.

I also miss the hot/cold streaks they had in back in M11 or M13.

I think confidence shouldn't be as easy to earn and should have more of an impact on the OVR of players. That would help the week-to-week ratings.
Devaster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 02:54 PM   #11
Pro
 
triplechin's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Jul 2010
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gritblitzer
I get that you earn XP based on performances, but to me, ratings NEED to be more fluid and you need to see the ups and downs from week to week in order to see a season of results that looks more closely to what we see in the NFL.
Correct me if I'm misinterpreting this incorrectly but I kinda feel like this is what I am trying to avoid. For example (IDK if the ratings even work like this but bear with me) lets say we have a WR with 85 catching. The hypothetical formula is he has an 85% chance to make a catch. So, if there is that rare game, or even two games in a row, where he drops 3 balls each game, it is not that his overall is worse than previously, it is just that he had one of those games where that 15% drop chance happened 3 times. Or at least that is how I would imagine it working in the sim/game engine (at its simplest form).

You know what I mean? He had a couple down games but he had them as an 85 still, that is just how it goes sometimes. That is why those that are more consistent are 90s, because they have less games like that, etc. Or how I imagine it should be at least.

BUT, I agree with fluctuations if they correlate to something more realistic in my mind. For example, playing through an injury can lead to a rating decrease. Being distracted because of whatever can lead to a rating decrease. If players have certain traits maybe they can get an increase for a rivalry game or something, but that would require much more thought...

What do you think?

EDit: I do agree with the guy above that confidence would be a good way to manipulate the ratings, but obv would have to be implemented correctly
__________________
51 & 55

FRANCHISE OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html

PROGRESSION OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html
triplechin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 01-25-2018, 04:12 PM   #12
AWFL Commish
 
Aestis's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 992
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Overthinking it.

Remove OVR altogether (it's a completely arbitrary formula that affects nothing in-game).

Remove XP progression.


I guarantee the game will be better off for it.

The reason OVR exists and will never ever go away is because people want a simple gauge for how good a player is instead of evaluating nuance, e.g. well he's really good at THIS but weaker at THAT.

The reason XP progression exists and isn't going away anytime soon is because people like their carrots on sticks. They like to press a button and see a # go up.


But taking away these two inhibiting yet now-ingrained features would improve the game and open up much better design possibilities.
__________________
RFF
Twitch Channel

Commissioner
After Work Football League
(Xbox Series S/X)
AWFL Discord
AWFL Daddyleagues
Aestis is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 05:19 PM   #13
Pro
 
briz1046's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: May 2013
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with an XP system ...what is in realistic is how the XP is accrued ( still largely based on in-game performance and randomly assigned goals)
And how it gain be spent ...though to some degree this is mitigated by the more unrealistic attributes being expensive to improve
In all honesty it's not that much different from the system employed by prior Maddens except that was all * under the hood* and under CPU control

You really have a limited choice of how to implement any future progression system

Retain XP but modify it in the direction of realism
Ie training camps, increase emphasise on practice etc

This is the most likely scenario that I can see even is a possibility as I don't predict EA rebuilding franchise entirely in the foreseeable future

They could retain XP but return it to CPU control as before ...this would be a backward step in my eyes

Abandon the whole concept and have progression pre-programmed into the individual players ..
This could work well (if there was sufficient variety in the progression arcs possible)
especially if combined with a dynamic development trait however such a system is highly unlikely to be implemented imo

I'm sure people can and will come up with other ideas but as I see things our best hope of a more true-to-life system lies in pushing what we have in the direction we want rather than calling for its demise
briz1046 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 06:11 PM   #14
Pro
 
Devaster's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Dec 2008
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

One way to modify the way the XP progression system works would be to put a cap in. Look at WR for example. You split up the stats into several groups: physical (str/spd/acc/agi/jmp), receiving (cth/cit/spc/rte/rls), durability (inj/sta/tgh), and blocking (pbk/rbk/ibk). Then maybe put the running stats into a return category for receivers. Then depending on how well a receiver does this opens up a certain number of pts for each category to pump points into. But the point is you wouldn't be able to progress players too quickly. Could still possibly use development traits as a multiplier for the number of points you get for each category.

Maybe also make it so development can't be changed. Once a player is drafted with that development they are stuck with it.
Devaster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2018, 07:37 PM   #15
MVP
 
TMJOHNS18's Arena
 
OVR: 10
Join Date: May 2011
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by triplechin
I like the general idea but I feel like this is a layer of complexity for something that feels so far down the road at this point. We have so much of the foundation to rebuild before these things can really make an impact I think
Definitely not something that can just be added in.

The one thing I dislike most about the XP system is that ratings only move in one direction until they hit a certain age. A 21-year old can be upgraded to a 90 OVR player by age 22. He then can ride the bench for 5 seasons and hit the field at age 27 at 90 OVR. No progression or regression, didn't earn any XP 5th on the depth chart so he's the identical player that played 5 years prior. Would love if a player had 'rust' over not playing for an extended time.

I feel with the XP system it's going to be stuck this way. People wouldn't be happy if they spent a season upgrading a skill just to see it reset the next year. For older players and regression it's expected, but if your 24-year old RB was upgraded from 88->93 BCV and come next year he's down to 87... plenty of people wouldn't like that.



One thing I would like to see is more external factors effecting a players OVR. I think there still is a production rating that impacts it (maybe?) and confidence has some impact if it's high or low enough. If the game could add more of these factors, such as chemistry, hot/cold streaks (return), etc., it would help players vary week to week and year to year.

Ultimately I would like to see XP removed in coach/owner mode for players, replaced by training/coaching influence. Let you choose what you want a player to work it, maybe your coaching staff and players learning ability effect how much their rating can increase.

Leave XP for Player mode and upgrading coaches. When playing as player you can choose what you want to work on, you just can't tell/force the other players to learn what you want them to.
TMJOHNS18 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 01-25-2018, 10:37 PM   #16
Pro
 
briz1046's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: May 2013
Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMJOHNS18
Definitely not something that can just be added in.

The one thing I dislike most about the XP system is that ratings only move in one direction until they hit a certain age. A 21-year old can be upgraded to a 90 OVR player by age 22. He then can ride the bench for 5 seasons and hit the field at age 27 at 90 OVR. No progression or regression, didn't earn any XP 5th on the depth chart so he's the identical player that played 5 years prior. Would love if a player had 'rust' over not playing for an extended time.

I feel with the XP system it's going to be stuck this way. People wouldn't be happy if they spent a season upgrading a skill just to see it reset the next year. For older players and regression it's expected, but if your 24-year old RB was upgraded from 88->93 BCV and come next year he's down to 87... plenty of people wouldn't like that.



One thing I would like to see is more external factors effecting a players OVR. I think there still is a production rating that impacts it (maybe?) and confidence has some impact if it's high or low enough. If the game could add more of these factors, such as chemistry, hot/cold streaks (return), etc., it would help players vary week to week and year to year.

Ultimately I would like to see XP removed in coach/owner mode for players, replaced by training/coaching influence. Let you choose what you want a player to work it, maybe your coaching staff and players learning ability effect how much their rating can increase.

Leave XP for Player mode and upgrading coaches. When playing as player you can choose what you want to work on, you just can't tell/force the other players to learn what you want them to.
Isn't * training influence * just another way of saying modify the XP system so XP are earned and spent in a realistic manner ? Ie via training ,practice and learning and can be spent only on those atttributes that would benefit irl
I do feel coaches and assistants should impact the system ...with benefits gained easier in their areas of specialization

Also scheme fit and continuity within a scheme should be increase XP yield while continuous change of schemes should be detrimental

As far as players progressing too quickly under the present system ...that's why we have XP sliders so we can choose our own ( or at least the league commissioner can choose) rates of progression

As far as regression ( whether it is from age or rust or injury ) the system needs to have more variety across the board ...to me it just seems that every player hits a certain age and gets identical penalties whereas in real life players regress in dramatically different curves even within position groups
Whilst they may have the average player not a million miles away from realistic there are nowhere near enough outliers ( the James Harrison.. Terrance Newman's who play at 40 near as well as they did at 30 or players that hit the wall at younger ages and drop away at 27 or so

Last edited by briz1046; 01-25-2018 at 10:50 PM.
briz1046 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:58 PM.

Top -