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DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Old 01-25-2018, 11:30 PM   #17
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by briz1046
Isn't * training influence * just another way of saying modify the XP system so XP are earned and spent in a realistic manner ? Ie via training ,practice and learning and can be spent only on those atttributes that would benefit irl
I do feel coaches and assistants should impact the system ...with benefits gained easier in their areas of specialization
Pretty much, biggest difference being that with the XP system you aren't forced to use it for certain skills. You can horde it, you can save up XP and switch positions, increasing skills they never 'trained' for.

Perhaps a middle ground would be to either create different types of XP, that you can only use for certain attributes. So different types of practice give different weighted %'s of XP. Do conditioning drills and you get physical XP. Do more position drills and they get a higher amount of position related XP.

This gives you the freedom to develop the player the way you wish, yet gives a bit of restriction so you have to choose a 'path' for the player instead of just upping attributes as you wish.

Another approach would be using XP to purchase training programs for the player for the offseason. You can build up the XP and then during the offseason they can do camps/programs to give them progression between seasons.
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Old 01-25-2018, 11:35 PM   #18
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by briz1046
There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with an XP system ...what is in realistic is how the XP is accrued ( still largely based on in-game performance and randomly assigned goals)
And how it gain be spent ...though to some degree this is mitigated by the more unrealistic attributes being expensive to improve
In all honesty it's not that much different from the system employed by prior Maddens except that was all * under the hood* and under CPU control

You really have a limited choice of how to implement any future progression system

Retain XP but modify it in the direction of realism
Ie training camps, increase emphasise on practice etc

This is the most likely scenario that I can see even is a possibility as I don't predict EA rebuilding franchise entirely in the foreseeable future

They could retain XP but return it to CPU control as before ...this would be a backward step in my eyes

Abandon the whole concept and have progression pre-programmed into the individual players ..
This could work well (if there was sufficient variety in the progression arcs possible)
especially if combined with a dynamic development trait however such a system is highly unlikely to be implemented imo

I'm sure people can and will come up with other ideas but as I see things our best hope of a more true-to-life system lies in pushing what we have in the direction we want rather than calling for its demise
Disagree here XP is fundamentally unrealistic. It is too much control for a coach/GM and has no place in a franchise mode.

With that said I agree EA most likely move away from it, but I won't buy or play until they do. Check out my signature if you want to see my take on better progression
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:24 AM   #19
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by triplechin
Disagree here XP is fundamentally unrealistic. It is too much control for a coach/GM and has no place in a franchise mode.

With that said I agree EA most likely move away from it, but I won't buy or play until they do. Check out my signature if you want to see my take on better progression
XP in itself is no more than a coinage ... in itself earning coinage in order to progress attributes isn't necessarily a bad or unrealistic system

It's artifice lies in that the majority if this coinage is earned in an unrealistic manner ( in game stats and goals) and :-
that it can be spent in any manner the user desires

The former point could be vastly improved by adding more ( and more true to life) ways to earn this coinage and thus diminishing the role of stats accrued in games
The 2nd point can be improved by limiting which attributes can readily be improved, this can already be done simply by using restraint as a user
additionally a system whereby the cost of all improvement was increased ,but these costs were dependant on the specialities of the coaching and training staff would be a vast improvement
So for example
adding a point to your left tackles strength rating would cost 1000 XP but by hiring Bill Callahan as your offensive line coach this is reduced to 500 XP...etc...
this would encourage xp being spent in a realistic way as more unrealistic options would be prohibitively expensive

In all honesty I think the chances of getting EA to abandon XP is minute so our best bet is to all pull in the same direction and tout for it to be modified in the direction of realism

Last edited by briz1046; 01-26-2018 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:39 AM   #20
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by briz1046
XP in itself is no more than a coinage ... in itself earning coinage in order to progress attributes isn't necessarily a bad or unrealistic system

It's artifice lies in that the majority if this coinage is earned in an unrealistic manner ( in game stats and goals) and :-
that it can be spent in any manner the user desires

The former point could be vastly improved by adding more ( and more true to life) ways to earn this coinage and thus diminishing the role of stats accrued in games
The 2nd point can be improved by limiting which attributes can readily be improved, this can already be done simply by using restraint as a user
additionally a system whereby the cost of all improvement was increased ,but these costs were dependant on the specialities of the coaching and training staff would be a vast improvement
So for example
adding a point to your left tackles strength rating would cost 1000 XP but by hiring Bill Callahan as your offensive line coach this is reduced to 500 XP...etc...
this would encourage xp being spent in a realistic way as more unrealistic options would be prohibitively expensive

In all honesty I think the chances of getting EA to abandon XP is minute so our best bet is to all pull in the same direction and tout for it to be modified in the direction of realism
I feel your message here it is definitely an uphill battle to get rid of XP but I think it is possible. I think that your ideas are good ideas to try to reign in the unrealistic aspects of XP but I feel like you are trying to make the best of a bad system. Perhaps we agree to disagree here but I feel like it is patching up a fundamentally broken system.
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Old 01-26-2018, 12:44 PM   #21
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by jfsolo
I personally find it strange that any sim players, solo or in leagues, play with any of those goal banners on during a game or even know what goals their players are supposed to achieve. I just play the game without having any idea about any of that meta knowledge.

Unfortunately, IMO of course, I think that they will never get rid of the current XP implementation as I would imagine that a lot of CFM heads actually enjoy having total control of the development of their players, despite it's unrealistic nature. They probably wouldn't shift the XP to be practice/study based because of their philosophy about maximizing User agency by allowing people to "progress" their players primarily by just having fun playing games.

I think the most we can hope for is an additional progression method that does maybe hides the OVR from the User and definitely adds coaches, trainers and all the other aspects that we would want, but I'm not optimistic that the development resources would be allocated for something that may only be used by a niche segment of the mode.
Yep. I'm the same way. I never even look at goals at all. I just play the game as I always would depending on how the game plays out. Then I let the cpu progress my players. It's not perfect in anyway but I feel it's the best option to use with what we have available to is.

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Old 01-26-2018, 12:47 PM   #22
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by triplechin
I feel your message here it is definitely an uphill battle to get rid of XP but I think it is possible. I think that your ideas are good ideas to try to reign in the unrealistic aspects of XP but I feel like you are trying to make the best of a bad system. Perhaps we agree to disagree here but I feel like it is patching up a fundamentally broken system.
For those of us who are still going to buy and play the game, it makes sense to approach the issue from all sides. Maybe XP will be removed someday, but until then suggestions like the ones made by briz1046 are really great ones. XP may be an unrealistic system, but it's not a broken system. It functions fine as a progression system irrespective of how many simheads hate it.
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Old 01-26-2018, 01:45 PM   #23
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

I’m in the minority - I like the XP system because it’s completely flexible - everyone can implement it however they like with respect to skills and how much xp is earned. Forget the idea of training or practice for a moment - xp is the vehicle for training and improvement based on how you would develop a player. I would not like a system where I had to spend a bunch of time doing the same training drills over and over.

Contrast the XP system to contracts and salary cap. Almost no control over contract terms - one of my least favorite aspects of Madden. Why would I want to cede control back to EA on training?

The only real change I would like to see is a cap (for each player) on physical attributes like speed and acceleration. Those shouldn’t have wide variability.

EA has provided a system that lets everyone implement their version of real life. It could be tweaked but hardly should be scrapped.
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:09 PM   #24
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by jfsolo
For those of us who are still going to buy and play the game, it makes sense to approach the issue from all sides. Maybe XP will be removed someday, but until then suggestions like the ones made by briz1046 are really great ones. XP may be an unrealistic system, but it's not a broken system. It functions fine as a progression system irrespective of how many simheads hate it.
Err fine it does do something so it is not necessarily broken. Allow me to correct myself and describe it as fundamentally flawed
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