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DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Old 01-26-2018, 08:18 PM   #25
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by Dcourtne
Iím in the minority - I like the XP system because itís completely flexible - everyone can implement it however they like with respect to skills and how much xp is earned. Forget the idea of training or practice for a moment - xp is the vehicle for training and improvement based on how you would develop a player. I would not like a system where I had to spend a bunch of time doing the same training drills over and over.

Contrast the XP system to contracts and salary cap. Almost no control over contract terms - one of my least favorite aspects of Madden. Why would I want to cede control back to EA on training?

The only real change I would like to see is a cap (for each player) on physical attributes like speed and acceleration. Those shouldnít have wide variability.

EA has provided a system that lets everyone implement their version of real life. It could be tweaked but hardly should be scrapped.
I agree with the contract point, I wish each aspect could be customized because as a GM you can offer whatever contract you'd like. With XP, I dislike it because you can't control player progression as a GM/Coach in real life. I think the dev traits are also a bad idea for many reasons. I agree it is possible to tweak the system enough to make it more realistic, but I think it is patching up a flawed system that limits other parts of the game as well. I respect your opinion but personally just don't like it. I don't really wanna take the XP discussion any further but feel free to check out my signature if you want to see my ideas of how to improve progression and the easy changes that can be made from doing that.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:08 AM   #26
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by triplechin
I agree with the contract point, I wish each aspect could be customized because as a GM you can offer whatever contract you'd like. With XP, I dislike it because you can't control player progression as a GM/Coach in real life. I think the dev traits are also a bad idea for many reasons. I agree it is possible to tweak the system enough to make it more realistic, but I think it is patching up a flawed system that limits other parts of the game as well. I respect your opinion but personally just don't like it. I don't really wanna take the XP discussion any further but feel free to check out my signature if you want to see my ideas of how to improve progression and the easy changes that can be made from doing that.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but coaches can't control their players on the field in real life, either.

The simplest solution would be to give players the option to turn it off.
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Old 01-27-2018, 04:10 AM   #27
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by untakenid
Just playing devil's advocate here, but coaches can't control their players on the field in real life, either.

The simplest solution would be to give players the option to turn it off.

That's why I use coach mode 😉
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Old 01-27-2018, 09:46 AM   #28
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

So I was arguing this when the XP system was being designed. The approach to progression with the XP system was very video gamey (the intent was "RPG Elements," which was a buzz phrase in 2012 when we were developing this, and to recreate the sense of Madden roster updates... I **** you not, one of the core reasons for the progression system was to make it seem like Donny Moore was updating your franchise rosters), and I was arguing for something more reflective of real life.

My philosophy has always been that production follows improvement, not the other way around. I hate the XP system with a bloody passion.

If I'm being totally honest, if I had been head of CFM, there'd be no XP. There'd be a system in place that uses a number of factors to control progression (coaching staff, coaching style, player work ethic, some kind of training camp factor) and you would not SEE progression.

I would hide ratings behind "scouting reports" compiled by your coaches, which would use a combination of ratings to create aggregates and there'd be some fuzzy logic depending on your coach's ability to evaluate. As a player improves under the hood, your coaches might identify the improvement and update the scouting report. All in all, the best way to know your talent is through play. You could have a rookie 3rd string QB gain a ton of OVR, but unless you get him reps in practice or get him on the field on gameday, you wont be outright told about it.

(This would have the added benefit of being very easy to balance because the math's straight forward, unlike XP which has too many factors to adequately control for).
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:08 AM   #29
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

The main issue with XP is every player can end up being the same if they earn enough XP. There aren't any caps. Players that are slow can become faster if they earn enough. There should definitely be some hard caps on players when they are drafted. Physical attributes besides strength won't improve much after being drafted from a realism point of view. There should be some players that have bad hands no matter how high they were drafted or how well they do.

Look at Braylon Edwards. Great season or couple good seasons, but always had "stone hands". TO is a future HoF'er but was known for having bad hands and drop issues. Roddy White struggled with drops. Amari cooper does now. These players should have caps on some of their catching stats. Same goes for carrying for RBs. Nearly every RB the CPU touches in my CFM has 90+ CAR, because the CPU upgrades that stat. Adrian Peterson is a HoF'er, but he always struggled with fumbles.

When you draft a player you shouldn't able to maximize certain stats. And that is realistic. Then there would be the added system of signing position coaches to maybe provide a boost there or "coach them up" like with Tiki Barber's fumble issues. But some players shouldn't be able to improve much because Adrian Peterson never was able to overcome his fumble issue.

I like the XP system, but without caps it is pointless. It is a bit like an RPG without damage/level caps. You just end up over-leveling and 1-shotting everything.
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Old 01-27-2018, 10:28 AM   #30
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

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Originally Posted by adembroski
So I was arguing this when the XP system was being designed. The approach to progression with the XP system was very video gamey (the intent was "RPG Elements," which was a buzz phrase in 2012 when we were developing this, and to recreate the sense of Madden roster updates... I **** you not, one of the core reasons for the progression system was to make it seem like Donny Moore was updating your franchise rosters), and I was arguing for something more reflective of real life.

My philosophy has always been that production follows improvement, not the other way around. I hate the XP system with a bloody passion.

If I'm being totally honest, if I had been head of CFM, there'd be no XP. There'd be a system in place that uses a number of factors to control progression (coaching staff, coaching style, player work ethic, some kind of training camp factor) and you would not SEE progression.

I would hide ratings behind "scouting reports" compiled by your coaches, which would use a combination of ratings to create aggregates and there'd be some fuzzy logic depending on your coach's ability to evaluate. As a player improves under the hood, your coaches might identify the improvement and update the scouting report. All in all, the best way to know your talent is through play. You could have a rookie 3rd string QB gain a ton of OVR, but unless you get him reps in practice or get him on the field on gameday, you wont be outright told about it.

(This would have the added benefit of being very easy to balance because the math's straight forward, unlike XP which has too many factors to adequately control for).
This is right on. XP system to me is not realistic to how you build a roster. It doesn't matter on good a player is or bad, because you can just make him to how you choose you want him to be. Players don't progress or regress like that in real life.

I would love to see ratings hidden or at least the option and have different ways of evaluating them. what I was thinking is that every player has Max Overall and Min overall in their ratings, this is dynamically changing through out the players career. So player x gets drafted at 85 overall, max is 85 overall and min is 65 overall, player b gets drafted is 75 overall max is 95 overall and min is 70 overall and depending on training, coach, and production on field will depend on how player will progress and regress through out his career. All this would be hidden from the user, only shown through scouting reports and coach evaluations and user playing with them in game. This would make drafting harder and building your roster more realistic

Last edited by ASZEMPLE; 01-27-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:03 PM   #31
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
So I was arguing this when the XP system was being designed. The approach to progression with the XP system was very video gamey (the intent was "RPG Elements," which was a buzz phrase in 2012 when we were developing this, and to recreate the sense of Madden roster updates... I **** you not, one of the core reasons for the progression system was to make it seem like Donny Moore was updating your franchise rosters), and I was arguing for something more reflective of real life.

My philosophy has always been that production follows improvement, not the other way around. I hate the XP system with a bloody passion.

If I'm being totally honest, if I had been head of CFM, there'd be no XP. There'd be a system in place that uses a number of factors to control progression (coaching staff, coaching style, player work ethic, some kind of training camp factor) and you would not SEE progression.

I would hide ratings behind "scouting reports" compiled by your coaches, which would use a combination of ratings to create aggregates and there'd be some fuzzy logic depending on your coach's ability to evaluate. As a player improves under the hood, your coaches might identify the improvement and update the scouting report. All in all, the best way to know your talent is through play. You could have a rookie 3rd string QB gain a ton of OVR, but unless you get him reps in practice or get him on the field on gameday, you wont be outright told about it.

(This would have the added benefit of being very easy to balance because the math's straight forward, unlike XP which has too many factors to adequately control for).
Appreciate you chiming in. I'm glad to hear the math is straight forward because it is similar to my progression system and I felt like it would be easy to implement but glad to get some confirmation. I've made a couple small games in my spare time but nothing serious so I couldn't really be sure. I really think having a more realistic and simple system for progression helps keep things flowing smoothly and makes it easier to build upon than XP.

To your overall point, I like it to a degree because that is how it is in real life. However, I can definitely see why this would be unpopular among the masses, especially since you can't hide the base roster so everyone would know the true ratings when the franchise began.
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Old 01-27-2018, 05:06 PM   #32
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Re: DISCUSSION: My problem with Overall in online vs CFM

Whilst as stated previously my thinking , at this time and more out of pragmatism , would be to advocate modifying the current XP system into something more realistic rather than pursuing it's removal

I think adding , as an option that people can choose, the ability to blur in some way ratings is an excellent idea
Tying this in with the adding coaching, training and scouting staffs with varying abilities and specialities would add not only more realism but greater depth
Much of the decision making would no longer be more or less black and white and the whoke game would seem more organic
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