Home

Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

This is a discussion on Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future within the Madden NFL Football forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football
eFootball 2022 Review
FIFA 22 Review
Hot Wheels: Unleashed Review
Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-26-2018, 08:16 PM   #89
Pro
 
triplechin's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Jul 2010
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
I understand that the general consensus around here is not liking the XP system. While I'm not necessarily betrothed to it, I like that it gives me freedom. If you want a challenge .... just don't spend the XP.... spend 30 % of the XP you earn while the CPU spends it all ... turn all the XP sliders down to 10%... waste the XP on attributes that will not help the player in question or boost his OVR. The tools are there to pile on as much challenge as you like. I mean... not liking it because it's gimmicky ... well sure I guess. But you can do all kinds of very basic things to make it challenging...
I'm just not a fan of it from the team building aspect. I think it just doesn't bring realistic growth for the CPU teams as well as my own, and I'm not one for 32 team control or anything like that. I tried it but it was just too absurd to have to play for hours with teams I'm not controlling and using a 2nd controller and all these things to fix it up. XP is just too jarring for me personally to accept. I'm just praying the attention they give to franchise includes getting the RPG element out and bringing it back to football. But realistically I don't see it happening and won't buy if XP is in.

I see you get to choose where to spend points (I'm not a fan but I see your point about freedom/controlling the outcome) but I feel like having a real progression system and then just being able to edit a player gives that same ability.
__________________
51 & 55

FRANCHISE OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html

PROGRESSION OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html
triplechin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 08:36 PM   #90
MVP
 
Nunyerbiz's Arena
 
OVR: 4
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,479
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

Well, part of the problem is that there is no such thing as a "real" progression system in the NFL. Nobody builds anything that takes more then three years. One or maybe two good draft classes and a few smart FA signings is the difference between 5-11 and 11-5 in the NFL. The average career for an NFL player is over and done in maybe 4 seasons.... And I'm sure the median career length is even less than that.... and if they do actually last longer than that, chances are they walk in FA. The truly realistic system would be consistent regression for a decent majority of players from basically the moment they enter the league.

As far as team building.... if you can live without "real" NFL players ... look at some of the XP slider threads here... or just turn XP down to 30% across the board and then sim 10 years into the future. It's a noticeably different experience in progression / team building. I'm playing a modified 60% XP setting now based on TDawg's thread... and I think the challenge level is higher and player skill levels are much more closely packed together. I'm probably going to drop down to 30% with a new CFM in a another season or two once my current rebuild is complete.

Last edited by Nunyerbiz; 02-26-2018 at 08:38 PM.
Nunyerbiz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 09:06 PM   #91
All Star
 
JoshC1977's Arena
 
OVR: 5
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 10,209
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

People use to "cry" about "random progression" on Madden because they had virtually no control AT ALL. Madden went overboard in the opposite direction by going with the "RPG approach" that gives us WAY too much control. I'd really rather that progression be based on training with factors such as coaching, player youth, their upside potential, etc. built-in to the equation.

MLB: The Show's training system looks ridiculously simple and "boring", but there is a LOT that goes into a pretty darn elegant interface (WHICH IS ON ONE SCREEN...not enter screen, exit screen, go to next, exit, etc). You can adjust training focus for each player with a simple toggle and view their progression in key areas on that screen. But, the depth is that your coaches influence it, player potential (a numerical rating), performance, and I think even Morale factors in as well. But the beauty is that it is such a simple interface, that casuals can dive in (or automate it) while more die-hard fans can customize a great deal. You have the ability to influence things...while not outright controlling it.

It's OK to be "simple" on the things we do in franchise....as long as the numbers "behind the scenes" have the requisite complexity.
__________________
If you aren't accountable for your "losses", you shouldn't take credit for your "wins".
JoshC1977 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 02-26-2018, 10:45 PM   #92
MVP
 
DeuceDouglas's Arena
 
OVR: 22
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

I'm in the camp that XP can be made to work into a more realistic model but the biggest obstacle with not only XP but the entire mechanic of player progression is that the system that's in place and a system that most of us would prefer are almost polar opposites. I don't think there's any way that you can really meet in the middle with only one option and I would say it's not even worth the time to attempt to. XP and the current progression models greatest asset is it's freedom and then for casuals you also have that arcadey, gamey, RPG nature and trying to mesh that with something more restrictive and far less forgiving and random just isn't going to work for either side. Best case scenario I think is providing an alternative option that changes how XP is accrued and able to be distributed. Obviously that creates its own issues with having to tend to two different models which isn't ideal given the amount of time that has and will continue to need to be spent on the current XP system. But there's a ton of different ways they could take that but the biggest thing for me at least is at least having an option to get away from all of this award and pro bowl XP type stuff.
DeuceDouglas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 11:57 PM   #93
MVP
 
OVR: 19
Join Date: Jan 2005
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

One of my main issues I have with CFM, is that there have been too many hands in the cookie jar since itís inception.

Naturally each Lead wants to add his/her own mark over the project and itís very difficult to take someone elseís creative thought and bring it to fruition as intended.

There is just too many historical imprints that seem to force each new team to have to spend most of their time/resources working around their predecessors nifty workmanship.

Hereís another example of a Tweet I sent to the devs of how a previous teams Block Strength/Footwork (gameplay) block ratings implementation, where functionality wise recoded to no longer be used (per current team), only to be referenced as an OL Blocking ability on their Top OL Ratings Deep Dive and in Skills under Player Details of Madden 18.

Keep in mind, the current team did the Top OL Ratings write up, as well as, dropped a Patch to allow more ratings to be seen when viewing a player, and this escaped all discussion that these Block ratings, said to no longer be used by the game are being presented to the gamer in a manner that says theyíre still being used?
- My mind is seriously blown that if these ratings are truly no longer used, that this got overlooked on these two game presenting levels
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 26FCF835-2C66-475E-BFD4-33DBE13BBC1E.jpg (120.1 KB, 148 views)
khaliib is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 03:03 PM   #94
Banned
 
OVR: 5
Join Date: Jan 2008
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
I don't think the problem is the XP coinage system, it's primarily how the AI spends it, how that enhances OVR and how that enhanced OVR impacts the AI roster decisions. Balance that better and a ton of the CPU roster mgmt wonkiness fades away.
If realism is your immersion, the problem is both how XP is earned and how it is spent. A realistic progressions system should have production follow progression not progression follow production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
As far as immersion factor... you are your own worst enemy in that regard... make up as many storylines as you want in your head. You don't need an imaginary coordinator running an imaginary film session telling you that your imaginary wide receiver is now slightly better at route running. It's just as easy to make all that crap up yourself... "I've decided that my WR3 has worked hard in practice and deserves a route running bump, so that's where his XP pennies are headed." The game doesn't need layer upon layers of convolution, we all have imaginations for a reason... it's your sand box... take advantage.
"I've decided that" takes what should be a dynamic system and makes it static. You know that route running is improved because you force it with spending XP on route running. I don't want to make "all that crap up myself", I want to be pleasantly surprised or disappointed with a players progression and what they progressed in. I want my influence to be realistic not god-like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
That said, I can understand wanting some things to feel truly randomized and out of your control... and if the AI was more tightly coded and position specific (see my 1st paragraph)... then you could let it handle progression for you and hand you some weekly news blurbs on player progress... But either way, the XP pennies aren't the issue.... it's how they are earned, how many are earned relative to attribute costs and how the AI uses them. All warts that can be tightened up via straightforward enough AI enhancements or mechanisms already in game (such as XP% slider). There is no reason the current system can't provide acceptable player progression, whether you want to peek behind the curtain or remain blissfully ignorant.
I'm glad you understand my desire for randomness and realism. I also understand your desire to completely control progression.
bucky60 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 04:06 PM   #95
Pro
 
triplechin's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Jul 2010
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
Well, part of the problem is that there is no such thing as a "real" progression system in the NFL. Nobody builds anything that takes more then three years. One or maybe two good draft classes and a few smart FA signings is the difference between 5-11 and 11-5 in the NFL. The average career for an NFL player is over and done in maybe 4 seasons.... And I'm sure the median career length is even less than that.... and if they do actually last longer than that, chances are they walk in FA. The truly realistic system would be consistent regression for a decent majority of players from basically the moment they enter the league.

As far as team building.... if you can live without "real" NFL players ... look at some of the XP slider threads here... or just turn XP down to 30% across the board and then sim 10 years into the future. It's a noticeably different experience in progression / team building. I'm playing a modified 60% XP setting now based on TDawg's thread... and I think the challenge level is higher and player skill levels are much more closely packed together. I'm probably going to drop down to 30% with a new CFM in a another season or two once my current rebuild is complete.
IMO since we are playing from a Coach's/GM's point of view in franchise, we should have a weighted chaotic potential system, but if you are interested in discussing that further I'd suggest reading my progression post as I detail my ideas there.

I'm intrigued by the idea of not playing with "real" players if it brings a nice balance along with the XP sliders but I have not bought Madden this year as I couldn't make it through another CFM. Appreciate the thought though.

I agree with Deuce in that there is a distinct split between the sim crowd's idea of progression and what features they want and the competitive crowd so it is definitely not the easiest thing to solve. I am a fan of having a seasons mode that is less detailed and can have an XP system or something for the comp crowd while the franchise mode has real progression and is centered on realism, but my hopes for anything like that happening are not high.
__________________
51 & 55

FRANCHISE OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html

PROGRESSION OVERHAULED
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...verhauled.html
triplechin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 02-27-2018, 04:54 PM   #96
MVP
 
Nunyerbiz's Arena
 
OVR: 4
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 1,479
Re: Rex's Reflections on Madden 18 and the Future

Well again, there is no such thing as "real" or "realistic" progression. At the very best, what you are asking for is a return to how it used to be done in Madden... and that's perfectly fine... but "realistic" isn't the word for it. A player has become 2% better at running a route... a player can now recognize run v pass 1% more efficiently... that's all made up nonsense. Either it's my nonsense or I trust the AI team at Tiburon to provide the nonsense. Seeing that for the last 20 years, AI coaches manage the clock like chimps with closed head injuries... yea, I'll take my nonsense. But I can understand the appeal of things being random / out of direct control.... and if they could pull it off... I wouldn't be automatically against it.
Nunyerbiz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:38 PM.

Top -