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Does madden want a realistic game?

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Old 03-02-2018, 01:11 PM   #97
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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Originally Posted by SageInfinite
Until Madden can pass the eye test, I can't be convinced that they want a realistic game.
While I agree with you I must say that I think there are to many variables to make Madden a true sim game. ..My personal opinion is this is the best that the programmers can do period..I've been playing Madden over 20 years and I swear it's the same conversations every single year..

Have they improved in some areas yes but they also digress as well in certain areas..
It really comes down to what you can and can't put up with on a yearly bases. ..
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Old 03-02-2018, 01:31 PM   #98
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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Originally Posted by tyberious4now
While I agree with you I must say that I think there are to many variables to make Madden a true sim game. ..My personal opinion is this is the best that the programmers can do period..I've been playing Madden over 20 years and I swear it's the same conversations every single year..

Have they improved in some areas yes but they also digress as well in certain areas..
It really comes down to what you can and can't put up with on a yearly bases. ..
I agree. I don't think they have the need, or the ability to make the type of game alot of people feel we should have by now. Rex and co can give me all the lip service they want, the product speaks for itself.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:30 PM   #99
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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I agree with your points of what many true sim gamers want, but I read Aestis’s point differently. I think he was making the point that a lot of self-professed “sim” gamers really aren’t and if that was what he was driving at, I agree.
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Originally Posted by ggsimmonds
I was alluding to the same thing I think Aestis was in his post, and that is that many people consider themselves sim gamers, but other people could take issue with that designation.

You two got it. I'm not really taking a stance on who is or isn't "sim," or what "sim" should mean, because in my experience many take that discussion merely as an opportunity to exhibit how many Xs and how many Os they know.

My point is that "the sim community," as it were, in my experience (my experience primarily being: playing in & running 32-man leagues focused on realism for several years now, each filled with folks from this very forum, and collaborating with other commishes of similarly focused leagues... so I get to watch firsthand how "sim" players actually play and not just what they post on a forum), is an umbrella term that isn't as a whole laser-focused on realistic gameplay. Surely this subset of guys who crave true realism exists, but it's only that: a subset of a subset.

And to be clear, virtually nobody in the sim-community-at-large self identifies as NOT wanting realism. I would bet 95% or better say they want absolute realism. In my experience, the reality is many do/would not actually enjoy realistic gameplay to the degree they think they do/would. I've played with guys who were football coaches as their profession who didn't understand that their passes downfield were twice as aggressive/deep as an NFL QB attempts/completes, and were frustrated that this aggression was leading to too many INTs. They blamed, in so many words, 'psychic defenders--but INTs that other guys threw were, of course, their own fault for not reading defenses. We humans have a problem with cognitive dissonance and you don't have to look further than the 'sim community' to see that.

And all this at least in part informs the Madden development team's decisions when it comes to prioritization: when even the crowd who supposedly is all crying for more realism also gets frustrated by more realism, that's a conundrum I'm glad I don't have to resolve.

In short, I think Rex wants as realistic experience as 1) technology/coders can enable; 2) resources dedicated to realistic gameplay will allow; and 3) the sim community as a whole will tolerate/enjoy.
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Last edited by Aestis; 03-02-2018 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:49 PM   #100
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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But the vision cone and this year's target passing reveals one unfortunate truth about the Madden gamerbase (elite competitive crowd included) -- the skill level is not that high.

It really paints the competitive crowd in a bad light. Rex stated that the goal was that the feature would provide separation in the tourney crowd, but nope. No one used it to elevate their game; it is still all about who can find the best combination of exploitative plays and repeat those over and over again (the so called shotgun bunch "offense")

Amusing aside, I so agree with this. I really enjoy watching eSports across a few different titles. The skill level of some pro gamers is astounding, just like watching the NFL or NBA.

1) "Pro" (I use the term loosely) Madden players are just not even close to this level. It's just not close and it's very apparent from watching them for 5 minutes. The best Madden players in the world are not special in terms of the eSports world at large, and this I do believe plays some part in why Madden has such a minuscule viewership compared to actual eSports.

2) The viewing experience of watching a pro Madden game is utterly miserable. Same play over & over. Forget what's cheese & what's not, forget realism vs lobby ball, forget what it's like to play this way: watching it is just not remotely enjoyable. And this is the other big reason, I believe, why EA is making a huge mistake trying to invest in making Madden into a legitimate eSport. It's not and it never will be for these two fundamental reasons.
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Old 03-02-2018, 05:56 PM   #101
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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Originally Posted by SageInfinite
I agree. I don't think they have the need, or the ability to make the type of game alot of people feel we should have by now. Rex and co can give me all the lip service they want, the product speaks for itself.
Sage, I have a ton of respect for you but I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the "ability" part of this post.

We've seen the passion from the devs, you call it lip service which is fine but I don't think that's fair.

These guys are passionate about what they do. I wholeheartedly believe they could deliver a game much closer to what we desire if they weren't so handcuffed by having to develop so many other parts of the game.


I will never disagree with you and your criticism of the game, I do not however agree that this is the fault of the current developers.

It would be one thing if we had never seen this before but we've seen multiple dev teams come and go over the years with no huge year to year changes to what some of us want.

When we look at variables, there is one constant in that equation and it isn't the dev team.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:01 PM   #102
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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Originally Posted by SageInfinite
I agree. I don't think they have the need, or the ability to make the type of game alot of people feel we should have by now. Rex and co can give me all the lip service they want, the product speaks for itself.
The bold times a thousand, that's all that matters at the end of the day, directly in relation to the thread title. Many have stated it repeatedly, IF EA wanted Madden to be a realistic game, it would be. The talent, the obstacles, the resources, etc aside, if realism is something those footing the bill for developing Madden wanted, they'd make it so, it clearly ain't what they want and the game clearly is what it is.

Nothing any of us layman can do about that but just in terms of the discussion, it grinds my gears when I see realism being set as some unattainable ambiguous bar just because Madden doesn't deliver it. This was never an issue before Madden was the only NFL game, Tecmo Bowl was realistic in its' day, The Show and NBA2k are realistic for the current times, Madden just isn't.

Another thing that just crossed my mind, it's funny that with photo stills of Madden, one of the few things about Madden that are realistic, we don't have the nonsense about "what is realistic/realism/etc ?" but when it's things Madden does that are obviously unrealistic and/or just poorly represent real NFL football, suddenly the term is too broad.

While I'm riffing, this other thing about people don't really want realism, GFTOOH with that mess, lol. When watching real life NFL football, I don't need to be an expert on the sport to enjoy watching, same thing applies to Madden, just because the football processes in Madden were realistic, wouldn't diminish the enjoyment value of the outcomes. In fact I always argue and believe that would enhance the enjoyment. Take a game like COD or some other shooter of that ilk, I don't need to be a weapons aficionado to enjoy having authentic weapons in the game, that reasonably behave as they would in real life. No one says don't have the 9mm handgun realistic, have it shoot lasers and unlimited bullets that turn corners because gamers don't want realism.

Then to make matters worse, gamers supposedly don't want realism, whatever that is but they certainly want an interactive movie like Longshot, this coming from the same studio that has downplayed the importance of AI and "true" coach mode because games are meant to be played, not watched.

My point to this rant is that realism in developing Madden, shouldn't limit accessibility in playing Madden with adequate UI options.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:23 PM   #103
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kehlis
Sage, I have a ton of respect for you but I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the "ability" part of this post.

We've seen the passion from the devs, you call it lip service which is fine but I don't think that's fair.

These guys are passionate about what they do. I wholeheartedly believe they could deliver a game much closer to what we desire if they weren't so handcuffed by having to develop so many other parts of the game.


I will never disagree with you and your criticism of the game, I do not however agree that this is the fault of the current developers.

It would be one thing if we had never seen this before but we've seen multiple dev teams come and go over the years with no huge year to year changes to what some of us want.

When we look at variables, there is one constant in that equation and it isn't the dev team.
I mean ability can be looked at two ways. They either don't have the ability due to the talent at Tiburon, or they don't have the ability due to EA dictating what can and can't be fixed or added to the game. Personally I think it's both. I'm not questioning their passion, but I am questioning their talent and direction. Rex, Clint, Cam, Ian, Phil, whoever can say what they want. The product always speaks for itself.
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:32 PM   #104
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Re: Does madden want a realistic game?

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I mean ability can be looked at two ways. They either don't have the ability due to the talent at Tiburon, or they don't have the ability due to EA dictating what can and can't be fixed or added to the game. Personally I think it's both. I'm not questioning their passion, but I am questioning their talent and direction.
This here is exactly what I was expressing earlier..It's not that I don't think they are passionate I just thing they have reached their programming peak....
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