Does madden want a realistic game?

[DeuceDouglas]

I don't understand why terms like 'realistic' and 'more realism' always get equated to turning Madden into a 1:1 simulation of real life. I also don't think that making certain aspects of Madden more realistic is going to suddenly turn sim players or the overall Madden user base on its head. Not only that but with the three different game styles that conversation shouldn't really need to be had anymore. Don't like that you can't take Tim Tebow and constantly drop 60 yard dimes anymore? Simulation probably isn't for you. If someone can't realize and accept that fact and is too caught up in the label, then that's on them and shouldn't be something that EA worries about.

[Skyboxer]

Until they put some "life" into the game ON AND OFF THE FIELD.. it will still be stale after 3 games.

There's also no reason they can't make it as "real" or Arcade as they want via settings.
They touted separate settings this year and it ended up being more hyperbole.

It will always be a video game. I get that. However no reason we can't get something deep in franchise mode with compelling game play.
Just my .02

I'll see what they bring next year but more than likely will be a year I get my fix vie PC sim.

I simply want a game where there's emotion and "stories" throughout the year.
By stories I mean major injuries that affect teams play style/decisions etc..
Coaching staffs that add to the game rather than just a name etc..
Stuff like that. A league where it evolves through the year/s and
doesn't feel the same week after week..year after year.

[Thunderhorse]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

I don't understand why terms like 'realistic' and 'more realism' always get equated to turning Madden into a 1:1 simulation of real life. I also don't think that making certain aspects of Madden more realistic is going to suddenly turn sim players or the overall Madden user base on its head. Not only that but with the three different game styles that conversation shouldn't really need to be had anymore. Don't like that you can't take Tim Tebow and constantly drop 60 yard dimes anymore? Simulation probably isn't for you. If someone can't realize and accept that fact and is too caught up in the label, then that's on them and shouldn't be something that EA worries about.

Simulation is not realism. I love this line of thinking because of its comical nature.

This perspective warrants Tom Brady dropping “60 yard dimes” off his back foot, regardless of the defensive play call, because it’s Tom Brady.

Three game modes mean literally nothing when the product does not understand Football at a fundamental level. Madden is about highlight plays and will probably always be so.

[Nunyerbiz]

I will disagree with the idea that the three game modes are mere window dressing. I'm not an online guy, the last time I got any significant online time with a football game is when I had to go out and buy the optional NIC accessory for my PS2 so I could join a friend's NCAA league. So I'm not an online cheeser type.

That said, after playing roughly 100 offline CFM games at various all pro / all madden slider sets, I decided to give MUT a chance with the freebie ranked draft that comes with the game. I won my first three games before running into a truly 'good' player who ended my dreams of greatness. I was doing nothing but "sim" style football that I used offline. The differences between SIM and COMP in pass coverage is night and day. With two evenly ranked teams almost every timing route is there almost every time. We're talking Mack truck wide passing lanes. The COMP game definitely allows for more acrobatic catches and overpowered juke moves, but it's tailored towards the user controller player making all the plays. Get the user to bite one way, go the other way... beyond that, control the clock and limit mistakes and I promise you can have a shot against anybody. If you can put up decent passing numbers in SIM All Madden, finding open targets will seem like childs play in COMP. I had little issue running the ball either, now not game breaking 70 yard runs.... but 3-4 yards when I needed it to stay on schedule wasn't an issue. You'd think these first three players I went against had never seen the I-Formation.

As far as realism / more realistic.... The core of the game is the problem, it's the overuse of animations. When you need 120 frames of a pre-canned sequence to play out for a certain interception, the game is going to look scripted because it is. It will never, ever pass the eye ball / smell test. In order to make the individual pieces move in a more 'realistic' manner via motion control, they lost almost all their ability to truly tighten up the interactions between the player models. It's just a mess of too many scripted mini animation events flopping around the field. The trees look decent and sway in the breeze convincingly enough... but take a step back and the forest looks and feels fake. It's why they can never and will never nail momentum and weight... the players have zero of either once the animations start.

[ggsimmonds]

I second the thought that the different game styles have meaningful differences. Just because you may not notice them in casual play doesn't mean they aren't there.

I've said it before, and this won't be the last time I say it, but Madden wants a fun competitive sports title that is grounded in a realistic representation of the NFL.

Nunyerbiz is right when he cites the animations issue, but the AI I think plays a larger role in the realism shortcomings of the game. I briefly watched the stream of a Madden league game that was posted on Madden's twitter account. The guy that won the game (tweezy or something like that) spent the vast majority of the game running one of two plays, either HB Dive or Off Tackle from the close I set. It was ridiculous for numerous reasons, but what I focus on is that the other 10 computer controlled players behaved the same way the 20th time as they did the first time the play was ran. Anyone that has played, coached, or watched football in a non-casual manner can tell you that this is not reflective of the sport.

And before anyone that thinks they are wiser than they are chimes in with a "no one really wants a true simulation," it is not a all or nothing proposition.

[blockdownkickout]

Quote: Originally Posted by ggsimmonds

I second the thought that the different game styles have meaningful differences. Just because you may not notice them in casual play doesn't mean they aren't there. I've said it before, and this won't be the last time I say it, but Madden wants a fun competitive sports title that is grounded in a realistic representation of the NFL. Nunyerbiz is right when he cites the animations issue, but the AI I think plays a larger role in the realism shortcomings of the game. I briefly watched the stream of a Madden league game that was posted on Madden's twitter account. The guy that won the game (tweezy or something like that) spent the vast majority of the game running one of two plays, either HB Dive or Off Tackle from the close I set. It was ridiculous for numerous reasons, but what I focus on is that the other 10 computer controlled players behaved the same way the 20th time as they did the first time the play was ran. Anyone that has played, coached, or watched football in a non-casual manner can tell you that this is not reflective of the sport. And before anyone that thinks they are wiser than they are chimes in with a "no one really wants a true simulation," it is not a all or nothing proposition.

I think the “money” run plays in this game are just the ones that aren’t randomly botched up. The “off tackle/outside zone/Wide zone/ stretch play is one of the best plays in football. (Don’t believe me go watch and Alex Gibbs video on it.). It’s a hard play to stop because of its moving gaps. Linebackers have to stay in their gaps. They can’t over pursue or under pursue.
Inside zone is much the same way.
The issue is. Out of random formations these plays will work a million times better than out of others for no reason.
Power is a great football play, but out of that Gun Split formation(see people run this in 90% of my games) it’s extremely hard to stop for no real reason.
I’d like it better if the formations force you into an alignment because it’s a tough formation. But sometimes the play is just golden.


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[blockdownkickout]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thunderhorse

Simulation is not realism. I love this line of thinking because of its comical nature. This perspective warrants Tom Brady dropping “60 yard dimes” off his back foot, regardless of the defensive play call, because it’s Tom Brady. Three game modes mean literally nothing when the product does not understand Football at a fundamental level. Madden is about highlight plays and will probably always be so.

See this is my issue. I’m playing off in cover 4. No NFL Quarterback is going to chunk it 60 yards for a completion over my coverage consistently. When it does happen it’s generally a big WR on a small DB in real life. However the only guy I see making this play half consistently in madden is 5’11” guys.


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[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by blockdownkickout

I think the “money” run plays in this game are just the ones that aren’t randomly botched up. The “off tackle/outside zone/Wide zone/ stretch play is one of the best plays in football. (Don’t believe me go watch and Alex Gibbs video on it.). It’s a hard play to stop because of its moving gaps. Linebackers have to stay in their gaps. They can’t over pursue or under pursue. Inside zone is much the same way. The issue is. Out of random formations these plays will work a million times better than out of others for no reason. Power is a great football play, but out of that Gun Split formation(see people run this in 90% of my games) it’s extremely hard to stop for no real reason. I’d like it better if the formations force you into an alignment because it’s a tough formation. But sometimes the play is just golden. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wanna clarify something, off tackle is not a outside zone run. Off tackle is a staple of the power run game.

The off tackle/Dive combo is too effective because computer controlled defenders don't aggressively fill their gaps. Coaching guys can help me out on this one, what is the phrase, get your hat in the hole? What happens is the defender that has C gap responsibility doesn't beat the lead blocker to the hole because he is too passive and slow to react, even if it is called 5 straight times. So you have to user the defender to do it. Once the guy sees that is who you are usering, he audibles to HB dive (another power run concept) only now it is the B gap that is wide open.

There are also schematic reasons its effective. Getting killed by the dive? Call a bear front. Wanna guess what a bear front is weak against? So it should be a useful combo, but its too good in Madden because of unrealistic play on defense.

Quote: Originally Posted by blockdownkickout

See this is my issue. I’m playing off in cover 4. No NFL Quarterback is going to chunk it 60 yards for a completion over my coverage consistently. When it does happen it’s generally a big WR on a small DB in real life. However the only guy I see making this play half consistently in madden is 5’11” guys. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Something else to clarify, when it happens in real life it is usually not because of a larger WR on a smaller DB. It is not that simple. When it happens in real life the two most common reasons are:
1. Blown coverage or another mistake, which happens more often than you would expect.
2. Happened due to scheme. Madden has this concept in game. Its called the pin concept. I don't think it is as effective in game as it is in real life though (part of why I don't think more realistic always means more difficulty)