Penalty sliders instead of gameplay sliders: 2013 all over again

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

The very premise of this topic is flat-out wrong. When I last spoke to Clint Oldenburg about gameplay and penalty sliders, he made it exceedingly clear to me not only that penalty sliders only affect penalty chances, but also that front-end sliders do not modify or override sliders other modes. He was well-aware when we spoke of the anecdotes to the contrary propagated by forums such as this one and he immediately and strongly dismissed as just that - stories. Given that he's the lead designer of gameplay on Madden NFL and would know how the game works better than anyone on this forum, we all should consider the observations reported in the topic post as merely placebo.

If penalty sliders alter animations (and Clint confirmed they do for defensive holding, for example) then they WILL affect game play, even if incidentally. For example, consider the following two examples:

1. Defensive holding is high, resulting in an animation where the defenders is very close to the wr. The ball is thrown. Due to the already near proximity to the wr, the defenser is less likely to be out of position when the ball arrives.

2. Defensive holding is at the normal slider position. The defender is not near the wr prior to the pass. When the ball arrives, the defender is not close.



As has been posted, the defensive holding slider affects animations, specifically, it gets the db closer to the wr.



Do you agree or disagree that the proximity caused by a higher defensive slider would have an affect when the ball arrives?

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Huh. No takers on that one?

Does a high defensive holding and/or interference slider setting, which causes defenders to be closer to WRs, have any effect whatsoever on game play?

[bcruise]

Quote: Originally Posted by JoshC1977

Tweet from Clint.... Here's the thing: currently, only outcome tuning separates our 3 styles. Def. Holding is animations. We don't yet support different sets of animations triggering per game style. — Clint Oldenburg (@ClintOldenburg) November 10, 2017 Here is the thing. If penalty sliders trigger animations...which they do (from his own mouth), then it would stand to reason that there may be an impact on how players interact on the field. If it changes how they interact on the field...well, what have we just done? People have varying opinions, but when a dev says something like this.... (that's all I am going to say on this topic...we can all agree to disagree....just want people to hear a more current stance from devs on this topic)

Sorry Josh...it's a good, well, thought out argument, but it's not enough for me to accept. I believe the animations Clint is talking about here are the ones that specifically signal that there's going to be a penalty called - we've all seen the offensive tackle drag a DE down on his side for a guaranteed holding call, and we've all seen the DB reach into a WR, the WR puts his hand up, and the laundry flies for DPI. IIRC there was a specific animation for defensive holding too, back when it actually functioned. You turn holding up, you are guaranteed to see those holding animations more often. Those don't change gameplay, other than the fact that you're wiping out the play.

Sorry, but Hooe's take earlier in the thread is still the valid, rational explanation for me. And I still see no reason why Clint would mislead the community on this. And I will not accept the idea that he doesn't know about his own game (not saying nor implying that that you or anyone else in this thread is saying either of those things).

Let me make this one challenge to those who say this affects gameplay. Watch this play - a pretty blatantly obvious hold, and called as such on the field (I maxed offensive holding to make one happen quickly):



If you can show me proof of this 2-man interaction animation NOT triggering a holding penalty, I will concede the point that penalty sliders can affect gameplay - because if the play result is allowed to actually count, then yes, it does potentially influence how the game plays. I believe this is one of the animations to which Clint is referring that is signalling that a hold is going to be called. My stance is that you will not see that animation unless there is a holding penalty called. AFAIK the game doesn't "miss calls" - it simply doesn't play the penalty animation unless the dice rolls determine that an infraction occurs.

That is my opinion on this for now. I don't think you can extrapolate that one tweet into "Penalty sliders matter in gameplay". We need more. You know I've held this stance for years and I feel like this is the best I've ever been able to articulate it.

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

Huh. No takers on that one? Does a high defensive holding and/or interference slider setting, which causes defenders to be closer to WRs, have any effect whatsoever on game play?

I've seen little to no evidence to believe Def Holding or Pass INT affects DBs' proximity to WRs.

That said, I have both higher in my set "just in case." I'm allowing for having missed something, which is something I hope we all can land on. "Little to no evidence" doesn't mean it's been proven false, but it certainly (for me) means it's not something I'm likely to believe until I have better reason to do so. I'm happy to be proven wrong on this, and I hope those who are such steadfast believers in penalty sliders aren't just so far down that road that they are unable to review their own biases. I do get a little disappointed when arguably the most common phrase I see written about penalties is "That's all I'm going to say on the topic."

I spent a lot of time watching this interaction (in particular in man coverage) early in the cycle when desperately trying to improve coverage in my slider set. Personally, I think what people are seeing is nothing more than confirmation bias here. This is particularly striking when I put these penalty sliders up against gameplay sliders and see the effects they have--both in the 'eye test' but (far) more importantly in the actual data. I can move SPD Disparity or Coverage or Pass D Reaction Time up & down in my 32-man league and pretty easily observe passing yardage, comp%, INTs, etc. all move as a result. When I've moved penalty sliders... no statistical effect that I've been able to detect.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by bcruise

Sorry Josh...it's a good, well, thought out argument, but it's not enough for me to accept. I believe the animations Clint is talking about here are the ones that specifically signal that there's going to be a penalty called - we've all seen the offensive tackle drag a DE down on his side for a guaranteed holding call, and we've all seen the DB reach into a WR, the WR puts his hand up, and the laundry flies for DPI. IIRC there was a specific animation for defensive holding too, back when it actually functioned. You turn holding up, you are guaranteed to see those holding animations more often. Those don't change gameplay, other than the fact that you're wiping out the play. Sorry, but Hooe's take earlier in the thread is still the valid, rational explanation for me. And I still see no reason why Clint would mislead the community on this. And I will not accept the idea that he doesn't know about his own game (not saying nor implying that that you or anyone else in this thread is saying either of those things). Let me make this one challenge to those who say this affects gameplay. Watch this play - a pretty blatantly obvious hold, and called as such on the field (I maxed offensive holding to make one happen quickly): If you can show me proof of this 2-man interaction animation NOT triggering a holding penalty, I will concede the point that penalty sliders can affect gameplay - because if the play result is allowed to actually count, then yes, it does potentially influence how the game plays. I believe this is one of the animations to which Clint is referring that is signalling that a hold is going to be called. My stance is that you will not see that animation unless there is a holding penalty called. AFAIK the game doesn't "miss calls" - it simply doesn't play the penalty animation unless the dice rolls determine that an infraction occurs. That is my opinion on this for now. I don't think you can extrapolate that one tweet into "Penalty sliders matter in gameplay". We need more. You know I've held this stance for years and I feel like this is the best I've ever been able to articulate it.

I have recently seen what appears to be the old defensive holding animation, even after they took out the penalty.

If I am not feeling lazy I’ll do some recording this week.

[edaddy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

If penalty sliders alter animations (and Clint confirmed they do for defensive holding, for example) then they WILL affect game play, even if incidentally. For example, consider the following two examples: 1. Defensive holding is high, resulting in an animation where the defenders is very close to the wr. The ball is thrown. Due to the already near proximity to the wr, the defenser is less likely to be out of position when the ball arrives. 2. Defensive holding is at the normal slider position. The defender is not near the wr prior to the pass. When the ball arrives, the defender is not close. As has been posted, the defensive holding slider affects animations, specifically, it gets the db closer to the wr. Do you agree or disagree that the proximity caused by a higher defensive slider would have an affect when the ball arrives?

This is absolutely correct and on point..If you have PI high you will actually notice warping to get close to the wr which triggers this animation especially on out patterns and deep balls...that effects gameplay. Defensive holding when it was correctly implemented increased the aggressiveness of the bump and run and caused that animation the higher you put it..that effects game play..I have also noticed that decreased false starts leads to more aggressive line play and increased offside leads to less aggressive DL play all that effects game play..Of course the developers won't admit it but anyone who has delved ito the game can obviously see it.. Increased Holding increases the animation ..There was a thread here a while ago where someone actually tested all this I thought it was common knowledge..

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by edaddy

This is absolutely correct and on point..If you have PI high you will actually notice warping to get close to the wr which triggers this animation especially on out patterns and deep balls...that effects gameplay. Defensive holding when it was correctly implemented increased the aggressiveness of the bump and run and caused that animation the higher you put it..that effects game play..I have also noticed that decreased false starts leads to more aggressive line play and increased offside leads to less aggressive DL play all that effects game play..Of course the developers won't admit it but anyone who has delved ito the game can obviously see it.. Increased Holding increases the animation ..There was a thread here a while ago where someone actually tested all this I thought it was common knowledge..

Yeah, I think it’s sort of a question of semantics on this one. It’s how it’s worded and how each person views that wording. I haven’t tested current penalty sliders, but I played with them a lot in M13 and M25 and chimed in on a few threads discussing them.

I think from Clint’s POV, from a dev POV, he’s saying the penalty sliders don’t alter the, idk, ‘engine gameplay’, or something. They simply affect the dice roll outcomes and whether a penalty is called or not. So, to him, it doesn’t ‘change the gameplay.’

But, again, I’ll only speak for M25 because I tweaked the hell out of that game for an entire year, and at one point was extremely focused on penalty sliders only. A simple example was the face mask penalty. Not only did this give extra penalties, but it also simply added more tackle animations throughout the game. And, that included what looked like face mask tackles that did not get called. So, in this case, it opened up a few more different animations per game and the game felt like it ‘played’ different. And, again, we can talk semantics. If I see a bunch of diff tackle animations, I say the game is playing diff. But, a dev may not.

The Pass Interference sliders were extremely interesting in M25 as well as people are saying in this thread. I noticed if u put def PI 1 higher than off PI, u see the cbs really staying with their man and even in front of them. This allowed for more batted balls. So, again, u change some penalties, u see a new variety of batted ball animations and the coverage feels tighter, so the gameplay feels diff.

Holding? Again, u see more holding animations, some are called, some are not, sort of like the real nfl, actually, lol. But, again, u see a few more animations and the holds help the offense do better, so it feels like gameplay is affected.

I was never sure about the false start and offsides giving a boost to either, so that one is up in the air AFAIC. But, the examples I’ve given and some others I could prob add do show that tweaking those sliders adds to more/different animations that can ultimately affect gameplay. So, I would say they do.

But, I think I also understand why Clint says they don’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

If penalty sliders increase penalty animations, and some of those animations do not result in called penalties, then it is an undeniable fact that they affect game play. All we need is someone with no responsibilities to spend the hours upon hours to get large video sample sizes to test it.