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Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

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Old 04-30-2018, 11:09 PM   #41
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Cool pic. The difference between 4.34 (95-96 spd) and 4.43 (92 spd) with no pads, pure straight sprinting, zero press/bump/alignment technique.

About a yard and a half...and that's 40 yards downfield.


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Old 05-01-2018, 01:06 AM   #42
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Cool pic. The difference between 4.34 (95-96 spd) and 4.43 (92 spd) with no pads, pure straight sprinting, zero press/bump/alignment technique.

About a yard and a half...and that's 40 yards downfield.


Are you trying to argue for a lower or higher thresh hold?

Since it's 40 yards down field, we have to assume they've reached their top speed. But how long did it take to get there? Furthermore, speed threshold also affects acceleration, doesn't it?
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:14 AM   #43
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Cool pic. The difference between 4.34 (95-96 spd) and 4.43 (92 spd) with no pads, pure straight sprinting, zero press/bump/alignment technique.

About a yard and a half...and that's 40 yards downfield.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
Are you trying to argue for a lower or higher thresh hold?

Since it's 40 yards down field, we have to assume they've reached their top speed. But how long did it take to get there? Furthermore, speed threshold also affects acceleration, doesn't it?

Then again, if you take into account all the other stuff, would it really matter? Some of these guys will be disadvantaged by poor release versus good press, and others it will go the opposite direction. I feel the other ratings should balance things out (unless pursuit or something else is way unbalanced), meaning this is what you should expect.

Assuming it take about 20 yards to get to max speed, and assuming 2/3 of the distance differential was made while accelerating, then at top speed you're looking about a 0.833 yard differential (over 20 yards). So a 4 speed point differential gives you about half a yard of separation over ten yards.

Does this divide linearly? Then one point of speed differential gives you a separation of 1/8 yards after ten yards, and therefore a 20 point speed differential gives you a separation of 2.5 yards after running for ten yards.

So if we have a 50 yard bomb, and a 20 point speed differential, the distance between the faster player and the slower player should be 50*(1/8) = 6.25 yards.


That's, obviously, some serious rounding and estimating, but it seems fairly reasonable to me. So if your speed differential setting (holding everything else constant) gives you about 6 yards of separation for a 70 speed rated corner covering a 90 speed rated WR, you'd have it close to reality.



I'm not experienced enough with the slider manipulation to know where on the slider it gets to around that, but I can only assume it has to be lower, since we're talking six yards of separation from a 20 speed point spread.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:28 AM   #44
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Higher threshold. My point is that people who think default threshold doesn't give enough separation because "they want speed to matter" don't have a good grasp of what speed differences truly look like in real life.

I mention "all the other stuff" because pads, press technique, alignment, etc. can make an already hair-slim difference in speed disappear altogether on many plays, but there are those who want a 4-6 spd rating difference to automatically result in 5+ yds of separation because they consider that realistic. When that is simply not based in reality. That's why a simple burner WR in the NFL is a guarantee of nothing: 1.5 yds of separation 40 yds down the field can evaporate pretty quick if the WR doesn't have good release technique & isn't a threat to run crisp routes so that slower DBs can sell out vs verticals, even from a press. But in Madden, many players want a burner WR to always get separation on slower DBs, as if SPD rating is the primary method of separation in the NFL (it's not: see picture above).

I will continue to beat the drum for high threshold for anyone whose goal is realistic outcomes. If someone simply doesn't like the look of animations at high threshold due to players being much closer together, fair enough. But in terms of getting the closest Madden can get to NFL-like outcomes, high threshold is objectively and measurably the choice, and it's not close.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:05 PM   #45
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Higher threshold. My point is that people who think default threshold doesn't give enough separation because "they want speed to matter" don't have a good grasp of what speed differences truly look like in real life.

I mention "all the other stuff" because pads, press technique, alignment, etc. can make an already hair-slim difference in speed disappear altogether on many plays, but there are those who want a 4-6 spd rating difference to automatically result in 5+ yds of separation because they consider that realistic. When that is simply not based in reality. That's why a simple burner WR in the NFL is a guarantee of nothing: 1.5 yds of separation 40 yds down the field can evaporate pretty quick if the WR doesn't have good release technique & isn't a threat to run crisp routes so that slower DBs can sell out vs verticals, even from a press. But in Madden, many players want a burner WR to always get separation on slower DBs, as if SPD rating is the primary method of separation in the NFL (it's not: see picture above).

I will continue to beat the drum for high threshold for anyone whose goal is realistic outcomes. If someone simply doesn't like the look of animations at high threshold due to players being much closer together, fair enough. But in terms of getting the closest Madden can get to NFL-like outcomes, high threshold is objectively and measurably the choice, and it's not close.
You can build a slider set around any threshold and have it animate "realistically". There are advantages/disadvantages to all of them. If you isolate threshold with default sliders, then yeah, low thresh is going to look REALLY bad (as does high thresh). But just as you have compensated for high thresh with your set, you can also compensate for low thresh and get an equally good outcome. The question is which player rating you want to matter more, acceleration (low thresh) or speed (high thresh).
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:47 PM   #46
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Higher threshold. My point is that people who think default threshold doesn't give enough separation because "they want speed to matter" don't have a good grasp of what speed differences truly look like in real life.

I mention "all the other stuff" because pads, press technique, alignment, etc. can make an already hair-slim difference in speed disappear altogether on many plays, but there are those who want a 4-6 spd rating difference to automatically result in 5+ yds of separation because they consider that realistic. When that is simply not based in reality. That's why a simple burner WR in the NFL is a guarantee of nothing: 1.5 yds of separation 40 yds down the field can evaporate pretty quick if the WR doesn't have good release technique & isn't a threat to run crisp routes so that slower DBs can sell out vs verticals, even from a press. But in Madden, many players want a burner WR to always get separation on slower DBs, as if SPD rating is the primary method of separation in the NFL (it's not: see picture above).

I will continue to beat the drum for high threshold for anyone whose goal is realistic outcomes. If someone simply doesn't like the look of animations at high threshold due to players being much closer together, fair enough. But in terms of getting the closest Madden can get to NFL-like outcomes, high threshold is objectively and measurably the choice, and it's not close.
I meant to say higher on the last post. The actual differential in speed is inversely proportional to the threshold. The higher the threshold the LOWER the speed differential.

So when I said “lower” with respect to my little physics calculation, I meant a lower speed differential (which means a higher speed threshold).
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Last edited by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞; 05-01-2018 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:18 PM   #47
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
I meant to say higher on the last post. The actual differential in speed is inversely proportional to the threshold. The higher the threshold the LOWER the speed differential.

So when I said “lower” with respect to my little physics calculation, I meant a lower speed differential (which means a higher speed threshold).

Correct. And the separation distances you were estimating were if the two players were running side by side without any contact.

Add physicality to get a WR off their route, superior DB technique/skill advantage (i.e. better ratings), alignment (e.g. starting with a 5-8 yd head start off LOS), and you can quickly understand how even a 5 SPD difference--which some Madden bros will want to be an automatic 4-5 yds of separation and consider that to be "much more realistic" (watch for this phrasing when guys discuss low threshold)--can on some snaps mean NO separation.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:12 AM   #48
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Re: Give me all your discoveries about how tweaking speed threshold affects gameplay

I have noticed at thresh 0 the players have a weighted feel, in a good way, doesn't feel like they are sliding.

My issue at 0 I can not generate a pass rush...I user pass rush with DL or OLB and can not get off a block
(Any suggestions? , I know penalties are tied in to this, so suggest away).... I played a few games at 100 thresh and the game felt "lose" movement wise...though I did get pressure, lol

Id love to be able to get realistic pressure/sacks
At 0 that would create the best experience for me.
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