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Old 05-07-2018, 03:32 PM   #41
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

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Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
They didn't re-invent the wheel. They tore down a crappy wheel and made a better one.


Let me tell you a story that is close to home for me and relevant to this topic. My brother is writing code for a game right now. He had a great design that simulated physics, but in some cases kind of cheated to make it look like it was physics based. It was very hard to tell, but if you watched the game all day testing you'd know when the cheating was happening. The boss made him tear it down and do it better, where there was less "cheating" and slight of hand (a Madden analogy would be scripted animations instead of true momentum based actions). My brother was angry, told me the boss was an idiot who didn't understand that "cheating" is what you do, but he began working on it, as he was instructed. It's about back up to the same level, but now it looks smoother.

In the meantime, his boss was busy working out a motion capture contract with a company that did work on a very successful movie. So the boss is spending the money (it's gonna cost some $30,000 just for a day, and that's only if they all go to THEIR studio, if I recall what my brother told me), and he is taking quality very seriously. He demanded that my brother make what was already good and make it great (which he is currently working on).


The point? The point I'm trying to make with CDPRojekt Red? You can be a "suit" working in the industry and demand quality as much for quality's sake as for money's sake.




You are right, though. Having the resources matters. My brother's boss made a ton of money on, I think it was, a mobile game several years ago, and then made wise investments, so he is loaded. So yeah, he has the resources to sink a couple hundred grand on an Indy game. But how much money does EA Sports have? Do you see why I'm ticked off at them?

My brother so far, who hasn't even graduated college, is the main coder on a game that a moderately wealthy guy worth a few million dollars (not sure his net worth; but he isn't EA Sports rich) who's willing to sink money into a project that might fail. One made coder. So far there is a team of about 5 or 6 people, working across the world and communicating through skype and facetime. So this is an INDY project, and the boss is putting HIS OWN MONEY at risk.

So if THAT guy can do it, and yet still demand quality and not cutting corners, despite personal risk, why can't a billion dollar company?



That's why I'm going to be FURIOUS if EA decides to abandon the goal of eventually reaching an NFL simulation in favor of stupid micro transactions and catering to casual video game players who know nothing of football. THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO DO BOTH.

So, if the implication of the OP is true, I'm going to be furious, and rightly so, because I personally know someone who's own boss is risking hundreds of thousands of dollars on an Indy game, yet still demands that no corners are cut so that the target demographic gets the high quality game they crave. And, of course, so he'll make a bunch of money. But why should both be mutually exclusive?
There are a lot of differences here between your acquaintance and a multi billion dollar publicly traded company, it really isn't apples to apples when comparing them.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:32 PM   #42
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

I definitely agree that MUT does not capture the essence of the NFL and is definitely more appealing to football video game fans, I like that phrase. I think the issue is that they are also the only ones allowed to make an NFL game, and really they do a poor job, if we categorize MUT as football video gamey and CFM as NFL game. The limitation definitely contributes to the venom towards MUT
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:40 PM   #43
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

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Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

So if THAT guy can do it, and yet still demand quality and not cutting corners, despite personal risk, why can't a billion dollar company?

You won't like hearing this, but you're operating the assumption that MUT = poor quality. The guys who enjoy MUT and have seen its progression over the past several titles--and there are way, WAY more of them than there are of you--would likely dispute this assumption.

If I'm an exec at EA and you simply asked me: would I prefer a game that more people enjoy? Or a game that fewer people enjoy?

I know how I'd answer in this hypothetical world. So you can use "optimizing for revenue" to mean "ignoring quality" if you like. But it's not based in reality.

Even this indy game your brother works for who is apparently doing everything the right way... let's see how that game actually turns out and how many people actually enjoy playing it before we hold it up as the beacon of all that is right with game development.


No, the issue here--as it often is when this topic rears its head--is that what you want isn't the same as what many, many more people want. And you want a AAA game dedicated to your niche desires when the masses have spoken and want something different. (And fwiw, I want what you want. But I'm not going to pretend that anything different than what I want makes it "low quality.")
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Old 05-07-2018, 04:52 PM   #44
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

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There are a lot of differences here
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publicly traded company

As you mentioned, this is a huge one. Dude's brother's indie boss's obligation is to nobody. He can do with his money as he pleases and take whatever risks he likes. The executive team at EA's responsibility is to their shareholders. That is a massive difference that affects all kinds of prioritization & decision-making at nearly every level of the company.

It's easy to vilify the giant corporation. I don't always disagree. But there are advantages and disadvantages to being the indie company. They're easy to get excited about and people fall in love with the *idea* of what they're building. But most indie games fail. And even the ones that succeed, most people reading this spend most if not all of their game-purchasing cash on AAA titles developed & published by large corporations. Why is this?

The answer is one some won't like to admit: because by & large, they make better games that more people enjoy playing. That doesn't fit the narrative, I realize. But it's true.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:00 PM   #45
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
You won't like hearing this, but you're operating the assumption that MUT = poor quality. The guys who enjoy MUT and have seen its progression over the past several titles--and there are way, WAY more of them than there are of you--would likely dispute this assumption.

If I'm an exec at EA and you simply asked me: would I prefer a game that more people enjoy? Or a game that fewer people enjoy?

I know how I'd answer in this hypothetical world. So you can use "optimizing for revenue" to mean "ignoring quality" if you like. But it's not based in reality.

Even this indy game your brother works for who is apparently doing everything the right way... let's see how that game actually turns out and how many people actually enjoy playing it before we hold it up as the beacon of all that is right with game development.


No, the issue here--as it often is when this topic rears its head--is that what you want isn't the same as what many, many more people want. And you want a AAA game dedicated to your niche desires when the masses have spoken and want something different. (And fwiw, I want what you want. But I'm not going to pretend that anything different than what I want makes it "low quality.")
Hasn't this whole post been proven untrue? Everything that even the Madden team themselves have stated is that Franchise is BY FAR the most popular game mode.

The difference is they can't monetize Franchise.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:06 PM   #46
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
You won't like hearing this, but you're operating the assumption that MUT = poor quality.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
As you mentioned, this is a huge one. Dude's brother's indie boss's obligation is to nobody. He can do with his money as he pleases and take whatever risks he likes. The executive team at EA's responsibility is to their shareholders. That is a massive difference that affects all kinds of prioritization & decision-making at nearly every level of the company.

It's easy to vilify the giant corporation. I don't always disagree. But there are advantages and disadvantages to being the indie company. They're easy to get excited about and people fall in love with the *idea* of what they're building. But most indie games fail. And even the ones that succeed, most people reading this spend most if not all of their game-purchasing cash on AAA titles developed & published by large corporations. Why is this?

The answer is one some won't like to admit: because by & large, they make better games that more people enjoy playing. That doesn't fit the narrative, I realize. But it's true.
WTF happened here? lol. I'm trying to follow your logic here but I having a hard time. In the first quoted post I think you are saying because people play MUT and it's successful, that means it's good quality. I beg to differ because it's in a rigged market, MUT and the game as a whole's "success" could simply be because people feel it's better than nothing, in relation to NFL gaming.

The bold part in the last quoted post I would agree with but I have no idea what it has to do specifically with EA and Madden. Yes, in general, AAA companies produce better games than indie devs but with regard to this game and this giant corp, again, all I can say is their game is better than nothing, for some. In that same vein, it's telling that even with that fact, some portion of long time football gamers, myself included, choose playing nothing.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:09 AM   #47
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
There are a lot of differences here between your acquaintance and a multi billion dollar publicly traded company, it really isn't apples to apples when comparing them.
What about CDProjekt Red? They, too, are a billion dollar company, and had former employees badmouth them on Glassdoor because the standard of quality demanded was so high.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:12 AM   #48
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Re: Article on EA financials leaves little doubt what Madden 19 focus will be

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
As you mentioned, this is a huge one. Dude's brother's indie boss's obligation is to nobody. He can do with his money as he pleases and take whatever risks he likes. The executive team at EA's responsibility is to their shareholders. That is a massive difference that affects all kinds of prioritization & decision-making at nearly every level of the company.

It's easy to vilify the giant corporation. I don't always disagree. But there are advantages and disadvantages to being the indie company. They're easy to get excited about and people fall in love with the *idea* of what they're building. But most indie games fail. And even the ones that succeed, most people reading this spend most if not all of their game-purchasing cash on AAA titles developed & published by large corporations. Why is this?

The answer is one some won't like to admit: because by & large, they make better games that more people enjoy playing. That doesn't fit the narrative, I realize. But it's true.
See the above post. CDProjekt Red is also a billion dollar company with investors, yet those in charged cared enough about quality to get bad reviews from former employees.

Compare that with the complaint a former employee made of EA Tiburon: they screwed up all the good things he and his people were making...
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