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More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Old 06-05-2018, 12:05 PM   #81
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
Adaptive AI sounds good in theory, but in reality it will just end up being the "psychic DB" that everyone complains about. Trying to balance AI to learn and adapt but still be dumb enough to not stop everything would be it's own struggle that many would complain about. How do you simulate some players being better at adapting than others? How do you make some players adapt and not others? What does this due for defense responsibilities and design? It is a far more complex issue than people think it is.
If done properly, psychic DBs shouldn't be an issue. If I'm throwing a slant to the same guy over and over, move coverage that way which should in theory open up something else offensively.
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Old 06-05-2018, 01:18 PM   #82
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
Adaptive AI sounds good in theory, but in reality it will just end up being the "psychic DB" that everyone complains about. Trying to balance AI to learn and adapt but still be dumb enough to not stop everything would be it's own struggle that many would complain about. How do you simulate some players being better at adapting than others? How do you make some players adapt and not others? What does this due for defense responsibilities and design? It is a far more complex issue than people think it is.
I mean .. that’s how you can differentiate good players from bad. Better players learn quicker. Psychic defense is already in the game. As it is now the defense reacts at user button presses rather than actual throwing motions/jukes/spins etc. Make the AI actually react to things as they happen and you can allow ‘smarter’ actually play smarter, athletic players play fast and liabilities to be taken advantage of.

As far as defensive responsibilities this will make broken coverage a real thing. Doubles moves and really routes in general in Madden now don’t “fake out” DBs, the DBs kind of just allow WRs to run by them. With a true adaptive AI you can have antsy DBs take more risks based on coverage calls especially if they know they have help. The balance for that is hole shots become more open. There’s literally balance for everything in football it doesn’t have to be this notion Madden Devs and you have that just because AI decides to do something within the confines of the sport that it automatically will be detrimental to the game as a whole. If you don’t want Ed Reed to fly around the field then don’t use the Ravens.

There’s legit nothing in Madden that gives each team and player its own identity. Everybody runs in the same way and “reacts” the same way, with slight differences coming in the timing. If the AI reacted to things happening on the field instead of having prior knowledge whether it’s knowing the play under the hood so dice rolls can be calculated or reactions to button presses, it would balance itself out on its own.

Yes I understand that people do their best to find glitches and cheese plays. But the route that Madden has taken to put everything in the users hands has allowed for way more nanos and cheese plays to be introduced to the game than there were in the OG Xbox/PS2 days. Maybe a realistic approach to the game will reduce that instead of arcade/“competitive” style we have now
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Old 06-05-2018, 01:22 PM   #83
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Maybe i’m wrong and none of that is possible. But i’m just tired of dice rolls in the game. In Madden it’s stalemate, win or loss with drastic differences in all 3. In Football there’s more of a blend. You can “lose” your battle but still be in a decent enough position to makeup for it. You can “stalemate” but help your teammate win at the same time. Just doesn’t seem like that in the game.
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Old 06-05-2018, 02:09 PM   #84
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by reyes the roof
If done properly, psychic DBs shouldn't be an issue. If I'm throwing a slant to the same guy over and over, move coverage that way which should in theory open up something else offensively.
Adjusting one's defense, within the confines of the game mechanics, is a non-trivial task. Furthermore, the best tactics aren't generally known until the players have had their hands on the game for at least a month or two.

Do you really think EA has the time to play test every single route/route combination against almost every conceivable defensive call (play call + presnap adjustments) to see which one does best? If they can't do this then they might as well resort to psychic DBs to save system resources.
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Old 06-05-2018, 02:10 PM   #85
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I see the AI thing got a lot of play, so I'll expand on it a bit. In terms of having the CPU coaching call better plays based on play that would work. I think you have to build deeper "concepts" structure underneath the plays to identify concepts that the player is abusing over singular passes. In most cases it is a concept abusing a coverage more so than a single route. I think a CPU coach calling better concepts to counter trends and even predicativly guessing what your trying to setup is a much more realistic goal than CPU player adaptive AI at an advanced level.

As for the IQ point mentioned, it's a slipper slope to program AI to be intentionally dumb until proven otherwise. People point to attributes, but remember attributes in madden are mainly probability modifiers which means even when the probability is low (low ratings) it doesn't mean the poor outcomes can't happen, and this is where the major issue falls.

Truly adaptive AI for a CPU replicating the way a human in a complex 11 man defense interacting with other adaptive CPU defenders all understanding each other's responsibilities and what happens if they "guess" wrong jumping a route and when they should take risks versus the rewards is a VERY complex thing to implement. I'm not saying it can't be done, or that EA isn't working on it currently, what I am saying is many people act as if it is some easy thing EA could put in to solve all these problems when in reality it will create many new ones in the early going and possibly beyond.

There are a lot of deep theoretical questions that a developer has to look at when trying to implement an adaptive AI to their game and no one has done anything to the scale of what people want EA to accomplish.
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Old 06-05-2018, 04:00 PM   #86
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
Truly adaptive AI for a CPU replicating the way a human in a complex 11 man defense interacting with other adaptive CPU defenders all understanding each other's responsibilities and what happens if they "guess" wrong jumping a route and when they should take risks versus the rewards is a VERY complex thing to implement.

When the XBOX One and PS4 came out, EA/Tib advertised the ungodly number of calculations per second per "player on the field" and how much smarter the AI would be because of it. Where did all those extra calculations go? This was a Madden selling point for the new consoles.

Other games have done Adaptive AI.
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Old 06-05-2018, 04:08 PM   #87
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Other games have done Adaptive AI.
No game has delivered something as complex as what people are asking for here. It is far more complex than people think to be truly adaptive, that's why psychic DB is more likely to happen then true adaptive AI. The defenses, and each players roles, are actually pretty complex and letting players inside that defense freely adapt will cause issues to other players in the defense who are also trying to adapt. That means that each adaptive AI player must be able to live within an eco system of other adaptive AI players all trying to work to stop a human who doesn't have to worry about the constructs of pre defined defense logic as offense tends to be more "free". What happens when one player's adaptation would hurt another's? Who takes precedent?

Again, not saying it is impossible but it really is a pretty complex thing to build.
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Old 06-05-2018, 04:29 PM   #88
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
No game has delivered something as complex as what people are asking for here. It is far more complex than people think to be truly adaptive, that's why psychic DB is more likely to happen then true adaptive AI. The defenses, and each players roles, are actually pretty complex and letting players inside that defense freely adapt will cause issues to other players in the defense who are also trying to adapt. That means that each adaptive AI player must be able to live within an eco system of other adaptive AI players all trying to work to stop a human who doesn't have to worry about the constructs of pre defined defense logic as offense tends to be more "free". What happens when one player's adaptation would hurt another's? Who takes precedent?



Again, not saying it is impossible but it really is a pretty complex thing to build.


That’s the best way I’ve heard it explained.

I don’t care so much about adaptive A.I. as much as I care about having more available tools to counter abusive plays. CPU driven behavior is going to be monster to change for a lot of reasons you mentioned and more. I just want some options for dealing with youtube Madden players - the guys that find 5 offensive plays and set of adjustments that just wreck any and every “sensible” defensive play call. More irritating is that some counters are effective at things they shouldn’t be. Things need a logical reason for failing and succeeding.
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