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More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Old 06-05-2018, 06:34 PM   #89
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Part of it could be tendency driven too. What do teams run on 3rd and 1? Which direction? Scouting reports on teams/players so you can defend them. It would work CPU against USER too, so if I run Power I Off Tackle a lot on 1st down, they should play towards that. Right now, there is no scouting or tendencies whatsoever.
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Old 06-05-2018, 06:48 PM   #90
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
No game has delivered something as complex as what people are asking for here. It is far more complex than people think to be truly adaptive,



That means that each adaptive AI player must be able to live within an eco system of other adaptive AI players all trying to work to stop a human who doesn't have to worry about the constructs of pre defined defense logic as offense tends to be more "free". What happens when one player's adaptation would hurt another's? Who takes precedent?

Again, not saying it is impossible but it really is a pretty complex thing to build.

NBA2K does it.

Those thousands of calculations per second for each player on the field can be used to coordinate/communicate reaction to an adaptive change.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:14 PM   #91
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by bucky60
NBA2K does it.

Those thousands of calculations per second for each player on the field can be used to coordinate/communicate reaction to an adaptive change.
11 players vs 5 is exponentially harder.

It’s not about how fast you can do them it’s about theoretical design issues that can cascade unintentionally.

It’s doable but not this easy solution people tend to throw out as “if they just use adaptive AI on defense it wouldn’t be an issue”.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:46 PM   #92
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
I see the AI thing got a lot of play, so I'll expand on it a bit. In terms of having the CPU coaching call better plays based on play that would work. I think you have to build deeper "concepts" structure underneath the plays to identify concepts that the player is abusing over singular passes. In most cases it is a concept abusing a coverage more so than a single route. I think a CPU coach calling better concepts to counter trends and even predicativly guessing what your trying to setup is a much more realistic goal than CPU player adaptive AI at an advanced level.

As for the IQ point mentioned, it's a slipper slope to program AI to be intentionally dumb until proven otherwise. People point to attributes, but remember attributes in madden are mainly probability modifiers which means even when the probability is low (low ratings) it doesn't mean the poor outcomes can't happen, and this is where the major issue falls.

Truly adaptive AI for a CPU replicating the way a human in a complex 11 man defense interacting with other adaptive CPU defenders all understanding each other's responsibilities and what happens if they "guess" wrong jumping a route and when they should take risks versus the rewards is a VERY complex thing to implement. I'm not saying it can't be done, or that EA isn't working on it currently, what I am saying is many people act as if it is some easy thing EA could put in to solve all these problems when in reality it will create many new ones in the early going and possibly beyond.

There are a lot of deep theoretical questions that a developer has to look at when trying to implement an adaptive AI to their game and no one has done anything to the scale of what people want EA to accomplish.
Would it be hard to code? Yes, and the difference in football with 11 players to factor in on defense as opposed to 2k and 5 players on the floor. Yes, they would have to apply logic for every play in the game with the defense. Well, 2k does this. They have the Czar on offense and OG on defensive duty to counter EVERY play in the game and there is over a 1000 plays in 2K. So they found a way to code and adjust how they defend specific types of players, how to defend PNR with 6-7 different options, how to take away the paint, & how to defend the perimeter. Now with all that you get multiple different looks as each area can change throughout a game. The CPU on HOF will adjust and call a timeout immediately if beaten over and over on the PNR. Then when they come out of a timeout the way they are playing me is completely different. It's constantly a chess match and how it should be. So is it a daunting task? Yes! But 2K gets it as far as assigning resources in all areas of their games every year. Having a specific person assigned to testing just the defense in all 1000 plays with multiple CPU AI decisions being made within each play and adjusting on the fly.

Madden is made for head to head and not for us old school User vs CPU offline guys. It's crystal clear on every release. If they wanted to assign the resources to it it could get done. They adjust zone logic because it directly effects user games vs other users. A User can adjust otherwise if you keep running the same route. Bottom line is we are minority and it's not a focus or concern of theirs. I'm not sure playbooks have changed in 20 years minus the defensive zones put in last few years?
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Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 06-05-2018 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:48 PM   #93
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
11 players vs 5 is exponentially harder.

It’s not about how fast you can do them it’s about theoretical design issues that can cascade unintentionally.

It’s doable but not this easy solution people tend to throw out as “if they just use adaptive AI on defense it wouldn’t be an issue”.
Saw this after I posted above. Agreed it is not apples to apples when talking programing for 11 vs 5. BUT...
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:24 PM   #94
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
11 players vs 5 is exponentially harder.

It’s not about how fast you can do them it’s about theoretical design issues that can cascade unintentionally.

It’s doable but not this easy solution people tend to throw out as “if they just use adaptive AI on defense it wouldn’t be an issue”.
But wouldn’t it technically be split up between position “ecosystems” ? DL/OL with a mix of LBs/HBs/TEs makeup one group. WR/DB is another ecosystem. Football technically isn’t all 11vs11, it’s more like 5v5 + 6v6. If they split up adaptive AI between these groups it’d be easier to manage I’d believe no ?if i’m off lemme know
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:34 PM   #95
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
11 players vs 5 is exponentially harder.

It’s not about how fast you can do them it’s about theoretical design issues that can cascade unintentionally.

It’s doable but not this easy solution people tend to throw out as “if they just use adaptive AI on defense it wouldn’t be an issue”.

“if they just use adaptive AI on defense it wouldn’t be an issue”. Would fix a lot of problems. It would make the game smarter. I don't buy the 11x11 vs 5x5 argument. Adaptive AI is adaptive AI. Each AI player has his decisions to make. Those mega-calculations per second for each player on the field can be used to adjust to the other players on the field. The game must already have some dynamic AI that adjusts to CPU and user controlled players on the field or zones defenses would be completely broken.


It really should be part of making a team oriented sports video game. Otherwise you just end up with a "DUMB" game. You may advocate for keeping the AI players dumb, but I would rather have them smarter. Especially on defense.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:58 PM   #96
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More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Maybe i’m wrong and none of that is possible. But i’m just tired of dice rolls in the game. In Madden it’s stalemate, win or loss with drastic differences in all 3. In Football there’s more of a blend. You can “lose” your battle but still be in a decent enough position to makeup for it. You can “stalemate” but help your teammate win at the same time. Just doesn’t seem like that in the game.


Yeah, Something about the dice rolls has always felt ‘off’. I think dicerolls might work great for linemen during initial blocking with blockshed vs strength vs finesse vs power vs footwork, etc. Dice rolls can work for certain things and should prob be used in those areas.

But, I’ve been trying to think of the best way to explain how they ruin CB/WR interactions, and perhaps how to make these better. Because, I think this is really the major dice roll that kills the game. It was great when they first introduced CB/WR interactions in M16, I think? But, the more u play the game, the more u either feel cheated from time to time by a swat or aggressive catch or ball warping through wr for an INT. Lol. U know?

So, what I think most of us would like to see (sim folks and comp folks) is different system. This goes along with the ‘tethered’ feel that has been in madden forever, actually. What they need to do here is allow the individual player action/reaction. For the comp guys, specifically, they want ‘jump balls’ to be under their control based on button press timing maybe more than ratings. I think sim guys want ratings more than button press timing, but I’ll speak for myself, that I want BOTH to matter. In order to make all that happen, they need to take out the overall ‘who catches ball or swat or drop’ diceroll, and instead use the INT rating (or, also create a swat rating or something, but based on what we currently have, INT could be used) to dictate how well the D player ‘makes contact’ with the ball as opposed to some elaborate calculation that factors in INT vs jump vs spec catch, etc. Instead, u have rating that dictates how well the D player plays the ball. The spec catch, possession catch, and RAC catch can determine what the WR is doing and can come into play during the catch, but again, I think what needs to happen is this calculation needs to be SEPARATE from the CB. They all need to have their separate calculations going on in relation to the ball. And, then, when the ball is in the air, positioning becomes more important and button press timing matters as well.

I’m thinking of a pass in the air, the wr is running a post towards the center of the field, let’s say, and the SS is running towards the ball as well and towards the wr (as opposed to a CB on his hip, I’m thinking more of the 2 players colliding in this example and the fact that a diceroll may not even happen as these players are not ‘attached’, maybe at this point). There are so many ways to play this for both players, really. The SS can choose tackle or hit stick for big hit. The wr can choose agg, RAC, or possession catch, arguably, and that should be chosen at a point near the actual catch and it should make a difference how close to the ball, what type of catch chosen. If both go aggressive catch (meaning, the SS goes for Y (INT attempt, specifically), their positioning and button press timing can really strongly determine the outcome. Meaning, if the WR makes his path just underneath the SS and jumps at the right time, he should catch it, and the defender should whiff the catch behind him and the wr will probably keep going for the TD. But, if the wr cuts underneath just short, the ball should go over him and into defenders hands. And, for either to catch, this is where their INT and catch ratings factor in. Instead, I think their INT and catch ratings factor into a calculation that happens before the catch attempt even happens. And, of course, ball hawk allows u to press buttons early to initiate the calculation.

I really think this is what’s missing in the game right now and having seen discussions about swatting the ball on D, I feel most people want that control back in terms of having to press the button at the moment of glory, at the actual moment of impact. I loved the idea of the wr/DB interactions when they were first added. I loved the poss catch, RAC catch, Agg catch. But, I have to say, after playing with these for 3 games, now (meaning M16, 17, and 18, not only 3 actual games of play now or something, lol) while they do add to the overall game, what’s missing is that moment of glory button press. And, again, I really think their dicerolls for these interactions are too tied into multiple ratings between the players, when they might do better to be more in relation to the ball. This would allow for comp players to really make that timing window of a great swat, catch, or INT and give them back some ‘stick skills’. But, in terms of sim play, it would also do better for individual players doing individual things, imo. And, it would still allow for ratings to affect gameplay.

In the example given, I could see a wr having a poor jump and/or spec catch. Even though you maneuver him to the appropriate path for the ball, maybe the SS is in the path as well, so u try to run just underneath him, and hit Y at the right spot, but again, with poor jump, the ball goes over, and if SS pressed Y, he gets INT (or drops if he has 50 INT rating or something), or if he chose X for swat, he absolutely only makes a swat attempt and knocks the ball down for incomplete. As for physics, the swat should always give slightly more reach to make the play for the defender. If the SS decides to go hitstick, he better line it up right AND he better TIME it right as well. Otherwise, pass interference, or, he whiffs the tackle, the wr makes the catch and runs for TD, sort of like Vikes catch vs NO in playoffs last year.

The more I type and think about it, I mean, that’s it, it’s still the tethering and/or perhaps too many dicerolls at certain times that shouldn’t necessarily have them. Or, the diceroll needs to be the player vs the ball instead of player vs player. U may need a better physics collision engine, I suppose, as well, lol, but I think that even without that, I think this is what a lot of players want and I think it’s what people think of when they say, ‘the good old days of madden’. It’s not just about better CFM options, I think it’s that gameplay that allowed u to feel more in control of every play/player at the moment of glory.

THIS is where FIFA beats madden HANDS DOWN! Lol. I am an avid online fifa player, and the reason I play that game online is because I feel much more confident in the control I have over the players at those moments of glory. The timing of simply shielding the ball while sprinting through 2 defender and then performing a roulette around a 3rd and spanking the ball in the back of the net is fantastic. And, I controlled ALL OF IT!! Lol. In madden, u throw an otherwise good ball, and something wonky happens, a weird diceroll occurs, and u feel cheated out of a catch or something because of a canned animation. That rarely happens in fifa. Fifa has to be performing some sort of calculations under the hood, but it’s unnoticeable for the most part. U get shook by Ronaldo because he’s strong, tall, and faster than u, and u ‘feel’ that. U get shook by Messi cause he’s agile as hell, and quickly gets his shot off. But, all of that is feasible because you press the button when u want something happen, and it happens, instead of watching the canned animation play out.




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Last edited by OhMrHanky; 06-05-2018 at 09:03 PM.
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