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More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Old 06-05-2018, 09:49 PM   #97
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Kudos to the posters that are able to give thoughtful and logical replies to some of this stuff because for me, I can hardly stand to do it at times, lol.

14 years in, with all manner of EA admitted wasted resources, much less the non-football focuses but "Rome wasn't built in a day" is still supposed to apply. All while other sports games currently and past football games, including previous Maddens, collectively offer EVERYTHING any reasonable gamer is asking for in Madden.

Specifically to adaptive AI, I'll just post these links to refresh everyone's memory that EA Tib knows and has known damn well what it is.

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...daptive-i.html
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...odgamebro.html
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:14 PM   #98
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
Kudos to the posters that are able to give thoughtful and logical replies to some of this stuff because for me, I can hardly stand to do it at times, lol.

14 years in, with all manner of EA admitted wasted resources, much less the non-football focuses but "Rome wasn't built in a day" is still supposed to apply. All while other sports games currently and past football games, including previous Maddens, collectively offer EVERYTHING any reasonable gamer is asking for in Madden.

Specifically to adaptive AI, I'll just post these links to refresh everyone's memory that EA Tib knows and has known damn well what it is.

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...daptive-i.html
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...odgamebro.html
BRO. THIS ! We all know EA recycles features every 3-5 years and this is such a beautiful example to help our point on this thread. Adaptive AI isn’t some insane farfetched fantasy that we just randomly thought of. It’s been in the game before (which is what I hinted at in my original post a few pages ago smh) and if it wasn’t taken out twice it would have had a full 8 years of additions and tweaks to make it a fully implemented feature. But nope.

This is the best quote:

“The adaptive AI framework that we’ve built for Madden NFL 10 is rather simple at its base, but its power is in its ease of use and integration to the game.”
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Last edited by YaBarber; 06-06-2018 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:16 PM   #99
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky60
NBA2K does it.

Those thousands of calculations per second for each player on the field can be used to coordinate/communicate reaction to an adaptive change.
Yup I agree. Also it may only be 5 vs 5 as opposed to 11 vs 11 but with nba 2k the action is constant with very few stops. In madden even if your running a no huddle theres alot more time in between with many more cues as to what the offense or defense might do. One play takes far less time than the time in between when the ball is snapped next. Thats a little easier to account for. I think that evens the playing field quite a bit.
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:20 PM   #100
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by T4VERTS
What happens when one player's adaptation would hurt another's? Who takes precedent?
When one player hurts the team you either adjust your playcall to help said player, take him out the game, or cut him off of your team. It’s football. It’s sports.
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:37 PM   #101
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

It’s been thrown at Clint several times that if 2k Basketball can do it, why can’t Madden.

He gave a great example of something that seems so simple to do on paper, but much more complex to build in football where the moving parts are extremely exponential to what’s needed in BBall.

His example was a WR sitting down in a zone on a Pass Play.
Seems simple, but he asked a simple question of “when should the WR be told/coded” to decelerate and sit?

***this lead me to flesh out his question even further
1) when should Player be told in the code when deceleration should began within their route?
- how much deceleration should be applied

2) where should they be told to stop “with in the code”?

3) what are the defensive keys that that AI will use to determine a) deceleration, b) Stop?

4) when Def keys are dynamically moving zone sphere around/near WR, where should WR slide to be open?
a) what direction to slide?
b) how soon should WR began to slide?

This is not even half of the AI cerebral considerations needed just to get a WR to sit in a zone.

Player ratings that make up the physical characteristics of a player has to be accounted for also to achieve any aspect of Player Differentiation from one player to another.
1) what level/Threshold should the rating used to accomplish a) be set at?


Then on the flip side, def players have to be told what to do for each possible WR using the logic and the variable situations that could occur to have balance.

Then there’s 4 Difficulty Levels and the different impact each will have on the AI.

Then altered User Slider impacts.

You still have to incorporate die-roll outcomes for variable CIT, Ball Knockout situations etc...

All this and much more just to have a WR sit in a zone on a pass play.

Football is a different beast compared to the complexities other sports have to deal with.

Side note dealing with the constant 2K references as “they did it”.

I love me some 2K5 still to this day, but one major notation about their VIP System folks who reference this, fail to mention is that the VIP System override the Player Differentiation that the player ratings produced.

Yep, it was a “Global” application that forced every AI player no matter their ratings, to adhere to the Adaptive Logic.

This was a major flaw I really hated, because now the individual teams or players involved play no role in the success/failure against what the User was doing.
- there were a lot of tricks/animation manipulation used to give the perception of AI “Adaptability”, but it wasn’t really Adaptive.

There’s no sports game today that has been able to nail this down, so a lot of the same tricks/animation manipulation is still being used by games taunting Adaptive AI capability.



I’m really curious about the answer/responses to this question...

Matched up against millions of variable user gamer skill levels, when is it cheating/OP dealing with the “Cerebral Application” of the AI?
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Old 06-05-2018, 10:56 PM   #102
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I get were talking about things in a way that makes it sound way easier than actually coding it into the game itself, but I think that gets more into the root of maddens problem. Why dont we ever hear (or very rarely) about how difficult something is to program into the game with other games weve mentioned? Features, even minor ones, seem to get added that exceed most peoples expectations in one way or another and its not even mentioned on the back of the box sometimes.

Yet with madden, every single year we hear about how difficult something is to add or that because a 12 year old wouldnt understand it they wouldnt put it in. Madden NEVER leads the way in innovation or features but does with excuses and talk about how they understand what the community wants and the needs of the "sim" community are to demanding. Why is that? To me, when excuses like that are made it either sounds like a lack of resources or talent or both is to blame. With EA Tiburon, as a whole I honestly think its a lack of both.

So honestly, what we are asking may not be too terribly hard for a group of developers who have been together for 20 years and have churned out a number one best selling sports game for the past 7. But for EA Tiburon it probably is.

I just wish they wouldnt advertise their game as the most authentic sports game on the market, it just adds insult to injury.

Last edited by michapop9; 06-05-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 06-05-2018, 11:15 PM   #103
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by khaliib
It’s been thrown at Clint several times that if 2k Basketball can do it, why can’t Madden.

He gave a great example of something that seems so simple to do on paper, but much more complex to build in football where the moving parts are extremely exponential to what’s needed in BBall.

His example was a WR sitting down in a zone on a Pass Play.
Seems simple, but he asked a simple question of “when should the WR be told/coded” to decelerate and sit?

***this lead me to flesh out his question even further
1) when should Player be told in the code when deceleration should began within their route?
- how much deceleration should be applied

2) where should they be told to stop “with in the code”?

3) what are the defensive keys that that AI will use to determine a) deceleration, b) Stop?

4) when Def keys are dynamically moving zone sphere around/near WR, where should WR slide to be open?
a) what direction to slide?
b) how soon should WR began to slide?

This is not even half of the AI cerebral considerations needed just to get a WR to sit in a zone.

Player ratings that make up the physical characteristics of a player has to be accounted for also to achieve any aspect of Player Differentiation from one player to another.
1) what level/Threshold should the rating used to accomplish a) be set at?


Then on the flip side, def players have to be told what to do for each possible WR using the logic and the variable situations that could occur to have balance.

Then there’s 4 Difficulty Levels and the different impact each will have on the AI.

Then altered User Slider impacts.

You still have to incorporate die-roll outcomes for variable CIT, Ball Knockout situations etc...

All this and much more just to have a WR sit in a zone on a pass play.

Football is a different beast compared to the complexities other sports have to deal with.

Side note dealing with the constant 2K references as “they did it”.

I love me some 2K5 still to this day, but one major notation about their VIP System folks who reference this, fail to mention is that the VIP System override the Player Differentiation that the player ratings produced.

Yep, it was a “Global” application that forced every AI player no matter their ratings, to adhere to the Adaptive Logic.

This was a major flaw I really hated, because now the individual teams or players involved play no role in the success/failure against what the User was doing.
- there were a lot of tricks/animation manipulation used to give the perception of AI “Adaptability”, but it wasn’t really Adaptive.

There’s no sports game today that has been able to nail this down, so a lot of the same tricks/animation manipulation is still being used by games taunting Adaptive AI capability.



I’m really curious about the answer/responses to this question...

Matched up against millions of variable user gamer skill levels, when is it cheating/OP dealing with the “Cerebral Application” of the AI?

I can appreciate the difficulty in accomplishing something like this but tell me how any of that is different from the ai accomplishing a similar task in nba 2k? All while not only taking into account physical ratings but a myriad of tendency ratings and a whole crap load of user manipulated sliders that work well and do what they say they do all while the action is constant.

Really what you just described is a similar challenge that a few other sports games all face, nba 2k and fifa just seem to handle it better all while accounting for even more ratings and a crap load of sliders that actually work, something that cant be said about madden.

I respect Clint, but your making it sound like that situation is unique to madden, and 5 olineman, and most of the time 3 d-lineman wont go anywhere near a pass, narrows it down quite a bit.
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Old 06-05-2018, 11:24 PM   #104
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by michapop9
I can appreciate the difficulty in accomplishing something like this but tell me how any of that is different from the ai accomplishing a similar task in nba 2k? All while not only taking into account physical ratings but a myriad of tendency ratings and a whole crap load of user manipulated sliders that work well and do what they say they do all while the action is constant.

Really what you just described is a similar challenge that a few other sports games all face, nba 2k and fifa just seem to handle it better all while accounting for even more ratings and a crap load of sliders that actually work, something that cant be said about madden.

I respect Clint, but your making it sound like that situation is unique to madden, and 5 olineman, and most of the time 3 d-lineman wont go anywhere near a pass, narrows it down quite a bit.
Trying to stay out of this thread because there is so much I want to say... However, I will add onto this. Whenever these types of discussions come up with respect to Madden and its dev team, there is always a myriad of excuses of why it CAN'T be done. It's BS. No one is saying that you simply tackle this in one year. The 2k team did not build their AI engine in one or two dev cycles. They did it over the course of many years. They're a far more talented group. Sorry, but it's the truth even though it stings so many here for some reason. Clint has never worked in software ANYWHERE else. His perspective, while still respected, is coming from the only studio he knows and he right away talks about these types of things in a "boil the ocean" type of way. He does this constantly which helps his rationalization to complaining fans that these things are not "easy" to do. No one is saying that, but at some point you need to start building these systems. The early iterations of them will never have everything we want. Hell, they will NEVER have everything. That's the beauty of it, there is never a limit to what you can do, which is what makes creating good software so rewarding.

When it comes to Tiburon, they simply take the lowest common denominator with most things, dumb it down as much as possible and call it a day. Then the Gamechanger crew comes along and tells us why it's impossible to do x or y. Wash, rinse, repeat. Had they built upon their AI systems from Madden 10, they'd have some killer AI in place now. Instead, it was simply thrown away after one iteration and completely wasted (like much of their sorry implementations). They're not a good dev studio. Sure, they probably have some good developers there, but as a team and a full on studio, they're embarrassingly lacking compared to the other studios.

Last edited by GiantBlue76; 06-05-2018 at 11:26 PM.
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