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More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Old 06-05-2018, 11:30 PM   #105
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by michapop9
I get were talking about things in a way that makes it sound way easier than actually coding it into the game itself, but I think that gets more into the root of maddens problem. Why dont we ever hear (or very rarely) about how difficult something is to program into the game with other games weve mentioned? Features, even minor ones, seem to get added that exceed most peoples expectations in one way or another and its not even mentioned on the back of the box sometimes.

Yet with madden, every single year we hear about how difficult something is to add or that because a 12 year old wouldnt understand it they wouldnt put it in. Madden NEVER leads the way in innovation or features but does with excuses and talk about how they understand what the community wants and the needs of the "sim" community are to demanding. Why is that? To me, when excuses like that are made it either sounds like a lack of resources or talent or both is to blame. With EA Tiburon, as a whole I honestly think its a lack of both.

So honestly, what we are asking may not be too terribly hard for a group of developers who have been together for 20 years and have churned out a number one best selling sports game for the past 7. But for EA Tiburon it probably is.

I just wish they wouldnt advertise their game as the most authentic sports game on the market, it just adds insult to injury.
This, well said. What no game has ever done before is completely irrelevant to Madden when Madden can't even provide what other games have and currently offer in adaptive AI, among other things. Why the defense and/or excuse for Madden's shortcomings ever goes into the equating of wanting "perfection" and/or them reinventing the wheel is beyond me.

Talking about the complexity and nuances of adaptive AI in reference to a game that, until recently, even had issues getting the AI to adapt time out calls to the game clock, smh.
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Old 06-05-2018, 11:47 PM   #106
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

It is interesting that Madden, for defense, already allows players to select plays that will cover passes in a certain area of the field: medium-outside, short-outside, etc etc.

Seems that is a step in the right direction for programming the AI to understand down and distance and select an appropriate pass or run play based on odds, for a specific down and distance. I do not know how they actually are calling plays for the AI except for viewing the profiles for each team.

I am not sure if a CPU team throwing to a Gronkowski is actually calling a designed play for him at a specific time, such as 3rd and short, or the AI just finds Gronkowski open more often, due to ratings.

From experience, I can double Gronkowski, and more often than not, if I cover gronkowski successfully, usering, I can get the stop and force a punt. Would be interested in a little more insight into how such play calls are handled behind the scenes. I think the Madden weighted play call system is antiquated.

Is the CPU looking for Gronkowski specifically, and by me covering him, I am truly cutting off teh key receiver, or is there no attention to such quality of player details, and plays are randomly called by the weighted star system only?

Last edited by 4thQtrStre5S; 06-05-2018 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:02 AM   #107
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by michapop9
I get were talking about things in a way that makes it sound way easier than actually coding it into the game itself, but I think that gets more into the root of maddens problem. Why dont we ever hear (or very rarely) about how difficult something is to program into the game with other games weve mentioned? Features, even minor ones, seem to get added that exceed most peoples expectations in one way or another and its not even mentioned on the back of the box sometimes.

Yet with madden, every single year we hear about how difficult something is to add or that because a 12 year old wouldnt understand it they wouldnt put it in. Madden NEVER leads the way in innovation or features but does with excuses and talk about how they understand what the community wants and the needs of the "sim" community are to demanding. Why is that? To me, when excuses like that are made it either sounds like a lack of resources or talent or both is to blame. With EA Tiburon, as a whole I honestly think its a lack of both.

So honestly, what we are asking may not be too terribly hard for a group of developers who have been together for 20 years and have churned out a number one best selling sports game for the past 7. But for EA Tiburon it probably is.

I just wish they wouldnt advertise their game as the most authentic sports game on the market, it just adds insult to injury.
The interaction users had with the devs under Rex was unpresidented and the access we had with them was probably more than the accessibility with devs of all the sports titles combined.

And if we where to be honest, no other sports dev team ever gave the end user such granular access to the inner workings of how their game works like Rex/Clint have.

Again,its not an excuse, but football is a different beast than the other games.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:07 AM   #108
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by khaliib
The interaction users had with the devs under Rex was unpresidented and the access we had with them was probably more than the accessibility with devs of all the sports titles combined.

And if we where to be honest, no other sports dev team ever gave the end user such granular access to the inner workings of how their game works like Rex/Clint have.

Again,its not an excuse, but football is a different beast than the other games.
NBA 2k has similar interaction. Maybe not the extent on social media, but does that really matter? Just because you interact with the fan base doesn't mean anything if what is delivered is still the same mess. I'd rather have ZERO interaction, but an excellent product, just like we had in the old days. Football is NOT a different beast. All video games are difficult to develop. They all have nuances that make them equally as difficult to create. Everyone wants to believe football is different because it helps ease the pain of the fact that the only one we are stuck with is severely lacking and has been for going on 14 years now.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:07 AM   #109
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I have no clue how soccer is played in real life. Seems thought, with AI programming, it would be similar to tethering players to other players within a zone radius, with additional tethering to the ball itself.

I think soccer would be relatively easier to program than american football. Which isn't saying much since I do not know the rules of soccer. Observing FifA and Madden, I can formulate a simpler path to connecting the programming dots, so to speak.

For one, contact is not as much of an issue in soccer; that eliminates a bunch of animations. Passing the ball in each game should be similar. Soccer players all seem to be skill player types, so programming seems like it would be closer to a copy & paste system. Madden has 5 skill positions, but 2 players, for example, a HB & FB have special logic from WRs, but could also become WRs.

Linemen are a major difference. These players have different logic rules and require closer contact, multiple contacts, spacial awareness, for example. There is also the "Mike" call, which does change logic on the fly.

Then there are zones which can be at least 10 different logic zones, of the top of my head. I don't see FifA having that many zone logic problems to solve. I could be wrong.

Anyway, I am rambling. I'll have to grab a soccer rule book now and see how dumb this post really looks to someone who knows soccer and programming.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:22 AM   #110
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

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Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

NBA 2k has similar interaction. Maybe not the extent on social media, but does that really matter? Just because you interact with the fan base doesn't mean anything if what is delivered is still the same mess. I'd rather have ZERO interaction, but an excellent product, just like we had in the old days. Football is NOT a different beast. All video games are difficult to develop. They all have nuances that make them equally as difficult to create. Everyone wants to believe football is different because it helps ease the pain of the fact that the only one we are stuck with is severely lacking and has been for going on 14 years now.
The interaction Im talking about is about the functionality of how aspects of the game works at a granular level.
- interacting rating affects
- formulas that impact outcomes, both AI and User input

No other dev team has put such info out there, none!!!
So were talking about to different things obviously.

As far as the zero interaction, well were going back to the old days for sure.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:54 AM   #111
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

TIL that T4VERTS is way nicer of a person than me.

For real though, one of the posters here cited M10 & M15 as an example that EA knows how to code adaptive AI to the degree posters here want.

I played M10 a ton vs CPU & in a league with a few buddies. M15 a ton in a 32-man online league and vs the CPU. There was no adaptive AI to speak of, maybe it was some feature they cited, but it did not exist in practice. There were still legitimately automatic cheese plays to a degree that does not exist today, there were routes that *always* worked. I loved M15 for what it was at the time, it was a large step forward but let's not paint it with rose-colored glasses.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:54 AM   #112
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Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I just want to put a few things in perspective and clear up some misconceptions. There seems to be this wide spread belief that other sports games are so deep and so much further along than Madden, when in reality that's not entirely true.

I am not doing this to defend Madden. I am only doing this to let people know that other sports games have serious issues. Whether that's gameplay or features.

For example. MLB The Show 18 got rid of online franchise. While they didn't come right out and say it, most will tell you it was to focus more resources on Diamond Dynasty. Can you imagine if Madden did that so they could focus more resources on MUT?

Depending on who you ask, the gameplay in The Show is an absolute mess. Something you might find to be familiar, these issues seem to stem from one patch fixing something but breaking another. The balance of the game is out of whack because of this. Hitting has a lot of problems right now and it's taking away from the quality of the game. Also the fielding has serious problems where the fielders just simply don't go into a fielding animation. This happens very frequently and has cost people a number of games including myself.

Also, people have been asking for new player models for years. They're not great but not horrible. But it hasn't happened. Also the challenge system is almost non-existent because you can only challenge calls at first. And it is AI triggered and barely ever happens.

And franchise mode is not very deep at all. Their biggest new feature was something called "Phases" where you basically can sim to different parts of the season such as the draft or the all star break. People have been asking for rain outs and double headers for years. Hey, if it's in the game, right? And they don't even have rotating interleague schedules in franchise.

Scouting is also pretty bad. Stat tracking could be much better as well. And I'm sure many other people who play the game can go on and on about franchise and other things.

Like I said. I just wanted to give some perspective and bring to light that not all the other sports games are light years ahead of Madden.

You can come at me with examples about how Madden is worse with this and that. But the thing is I will probably agree with you. Because I am not defending Madden. I am just telling you that for the people who don't play other sports games that this misconception that other games like The Show are so far ahead of Madden when it's really not.

Last edited by PVarck31; 06-06-2018 at 01:05 AM.
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