Home

More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

This is a discussion on More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19 within the Madden NFL Football forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football
eFootball 2022 Review
FIFA 22 Review
Hot Wheels: Unleashed Review
Poll: What's more important to you, when the time comes to purchase a game? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-06-2018, 11:08 AM   #121
MVP
 
vannwolfhawk's Arena
 
OVR: 26
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Emerald City
Posts: 3,078
Blog Entries: 15
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I’ll respond to a previous post about clint and his responses to AI and it’s exactly what 2K has now. I am not trying to compare dev teams or 2 different games, but just merely explaining that another game has accomplished this and like other poster said it wasn’t put in in 1 dev cycle but it has been a focus for them and built on every year. Imagine if in Madden 10 they put it in and built on it every year where we COULD be at now in Madden with adaptive AI.

But for my example, If I run a PNR in 2K and the weak side tag man rotates over for help defense “The AI” lifts that players man (cpu user player automatically) from the baseline for a throwback pass. The AI and player reads what is happening on the court on the fly and adjusts immediately. If a CPU player is hugging my man on the perimeter what does the AI do? He cuts Backdoor. If I’m consistently beating the cpu with the same play they adjust in game and if I ran 1 play 5x in a row I might get 5 different looks out of it. If I continued to score in the paint they adjust and change to protect paint. If I then start to hit shooters on the perimeter they still take away paint yet stay home on my shooters and help from the weakest player on the floor. I mentioned earlier that you could get 50-100 different looks out of a handful of adjustments. Is it perfect and is there still flaws there? Of course! But what if none of that existed? Well you would get what we have in Madden currently. I have tested this every game in Madden for years. I can run curl routes 10x in a row vs cpu with no adjustments. Same with out routes, out and up’s, corners, etc. it’s a dice roll in the plays the cpu has in each category in gameplanning in what they call. Anyone who dives into that cpu gameplanning can see why the game is so flawed and if anyone tried applying those playbooks adjusted to cpu (offensively) you could immediately see it was a better game (offensively) by the cpu and felt adaptive although it was still a dice roll.

We all want the same thing. I enjoy Madden in a online league and in head to head. There are flaws still with certain things being overpowered (thinking drags and streaks, and out and up’s without major slider adjustments), but it is a chess match and fun for me. But playing the CPU isn’t even remotely an option because of lack of adaptive AI. I think back to Clint’s example is build a read and react system kind of like the option routes in game currently for offense. But I think most here aren’t talking about a player sitting on a route offensively and when to decelerate, but we are talking about the defensive AI adaptability to what we the users are doing, abusing in game. I’m not sure about you but I don’t like to play a game where I have to handicap myself. And let’s take adaptive player IQ out of it. How bout starting with playcalling? If getting beat over the top constantly or by certain routes the CPU calls plays to stop it? That’s a start.

Lastly, back to player iq, again 2k has player attribute ratings in defensive categories and go look at all the player tendencies to truly set players apart from1 another! Wow! But the defensive iq categories are...

On ball defense iq - how they play their man and how fast they cut off angles and read what their man will do before he does.

Low post defense iq - how good they play in the post in reading what player moves they do and how to defend it...

Help defense iq - how often and quick they react to go help on defense...

Pnr Defensive iq - how well they read to go over/under/hedge, etc...

Pass perception - how good they are at reading passing lanes and getting a steal.

Defensive consistency - how often they make the correct reads defensively or how often they make mistakes.

Then tie in that a defensive slider that works perfectly with defensive consistency and you can adjust how smart more less in how good or bad you want the cpu player iq to be. This isn’t even speaking on the tendencies as far as for example pass perception that would be great for Madden as far as “how often does a player go for a steal/interception”.

Now tell me just these ratings alone couldn’t benefit being in Madden? Of course need the system in it to get the results wanted. Anyways, it can be done, it has been done, question is when in Madden if ever, will it be done, do they want it to be done, or can the devs get it done???
__________________
Basketball Playbooks
http://www.nextplayhoops.com

Follow Here For NBA2k22 Playbook Updates
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...a-x-s-o-s.html

Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 06-06-2018 at 11:19 AM.
vannwolfhawk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 06-06-2018, 11:17 AM   #122
*ll St*r
 
roadman's Arena
 
OVR: 34
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Midwest
Posts: 25,730
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

In theory, on paper and in another game, absolutely it works.

In Madden, who knows?

People mention the Madden team is less talented, so, once implemented, maybe they don't pull it off.

At least, we could all applaud the effort if they tried it.
roadman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2018, 11:24 AM   #123
MVP
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Jan 2011
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk
Anyways, it can be done, it has been done, question is when I’m Madden if ever, will it be done or do they want it to be done???
This is an over simplification. No it hasn't been done as the difference again between doing 11 guys in space vs 5 guys in a much smaller area is not apples to apples. Also remember you don't want better AI you wan't true adaptive AI capable of over coming any created concepts people build. While 2k adapts there is only so much you can do in 2k because the other players are AI themselves and you can't control them all at once , Madden allows for hot routing which allows users to somewhat dictate all 11 guys moves on offense at an instance (snap).

Coaching adjustments should be there I'll agree with that. People over simplifying adaptive AI though is frustrating. My company is actually working in this space right now with using AI to identify potential active shooters in schools and I can tell you the complexities of AI that can learn is ridiculous and can have some serious unforeseen outcomes.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter @T4Verts
T4VERTS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2018, 11:29 AM   #124
Rookie
 
YaBarber's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Dec 2017
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

That’s what’s crazy about NBA 2K. There are so many sliders, ratings, tendencies, traits that all work together for individuals and as a whole. And what’s crazier is (imo) football needs that much depth more than basketball. Sports in general needs player and team differentiation otherwise it’s just user preference that makes a game “different.” We get individual position IQ ratings, tendencies and traits for Madden that actually make a visual difference and we already have the best game of Madden ever made.
__________________
Go Colts
YaBarber is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2018, 11:37 AM   #125
Banned
 
OVR: 5
Join Date: Jan 2008
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
No it hasn't been done as the difference again between doing 11 guys in space vs 5 guys in a much smaller area is not apples to apples.

Yes it has been done by NBA2K. Don't buy that Madden is so different than NBA2K because of the 11 vs 5. As some have already pointed out, it isn't truly 11. You can break those 11 into subsets. Linemen reacting to other lineman, lineman reacting to other linebackers, but lineman don't really need to react to DB's in coverage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
Also remember you don't want better AI you wan't true adaptive AI capable of over coming any created concepts people build.

We want both.



Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
While 2k adapts there is only so much you can do in 2k

What 2K does is a lot more than what Madden does.
bucky60 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 06-06-2018, 12:10 PM   #126
MVP
 
vannwolfhawk's Arena
 
OVR: 26
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Emerald City
Posts: 3,078
Blog Entries: 15
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by T4VERTS
This is an over simplification. No it hasn't been done as the difference again between doing 11 guys in space vs 5 guys in a much smaller area is not apples to apples. Also remember you don't want better AI you wan't true adaptive AI capable of over coming any created concepts people build. While 2k adapts there is only so much you can do in 2k because the other players are AI themselves and you can't control them all at once , Madden allows for hot routing which allows users to somewhat dictate all 11 guys moves on offense at an instance (snap).

Coaching adjustments should be there I'll agree with that. People over simplifying adaptive AI though is frustrating. My company is actually working in this space right now with using AI to identify potential active shooters in schools and I can tell you the complexities of AI that can learn is ridiculous and can have some serious unforeseen outcomes.
Ok, let’s simplify this. I’m just thinking out loud without much thought. How about we focus on cornerbacks. Let’s pretend they have the tendencies and attributes that 2k has. They alone have the IQ to read what’s going on with only their area to defend whether in zone or man. Taking all other players out of the mix. You are telling me we can’t figure out how to get that 1 player to defend his side of the field or play a man in man to man and adjust if his man is doing the same thing 10x in a row? We can’t figure out how to give him cpu AI and react in each play in the game and recognize what I’m doing? Someone else posted earlier if the CB had a perfect read and jumped my slant then what happens next? Well like in real football and you are the QB we progress to the next read. I’d be all for a stud cornerback (thinking Deion Sanders) jumping my routes. A true shutdown corner means I want to stay away from his side of the field. That does not exist in Madden. Now of course EVERY play and/or EVERY route would need to be tested and have multiple reads out of it like how 2k does and that’s a major undertaking and you would need to assign a guy or 2 in that area alone. Isn’t maddens dev team like 4-5x bigger then 2k’s? That’s a whole different subject though.

I was just listening to Brandon Marshall interview the other day at Seahawks OTA’s. He was talking about how he got shut down in a game and went back and was watching tape of himself. In the tape he realized he was telegraphing in how he was setting up pre snap meaning he had his left foot forward every time he was running a certain route or vice versa. The CB was reading and jumping his routes and took him out of game as he picked up on his TENDENCIES. That’s what I want! Lol

But back to CB play focus position by position 1st. To me I think even just applying some cpu ai logic to the cornerbacks or all 4-5 DB’s & LB’s would be a start I’d be happy with and shoot leave the line players alone til next dev cycle. That means we are just focusing on 7 players in coverage. Obviously we want all 22 players having CPU AI awareness but if they had to do it in baby steps and start by building the logic with the DB’s 1st I wouldn’t be mad. Simplify it by breaking down different branches in sections of the field (1 side with a CB). They have applied it somewhat with zone logic though with the new zone plays and have tweaked that 3 years in a row now. It’s for sure improved the game imo. Players in zones making their read progressions, but If they can do that for zones why can’t they do this for man to man defense?

To me I almost think esports and the competitive gaming factors in here as well as who wants to watch a stream that’s a 7-3 defensive battle? Well, I would, but I’d say I’m in the minority here. Bottom line is I truly don’t think EA wants to put resources into offline play or adaptive AI for the CPU for a multitude of reasons. I think of QB awareness in the pocket not being addressed for years and how long it took to patch where qb’s would even run with the ball when they had 20-30 yards in front of them. That didn’t effect head to head so what’s the rush to fix it???

Like I said it’s not an easy fix. I’d assume even in 5 vs 5 in basketball it needed to be broken down. In 2k example ball is on strong side so they send help from weakside. They then had to code how other players read the play from there from rotations to how the CPU had adjusted to how they are guarding a player.

We also need the cpu playcalling to adjust too and that has to be 1A and 1B for me.
__________________
Basketball Playbooks
http://www.nextplayhoops.com

Follow Here For NBA2k22 Playbook Updates
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...a-x-s-o-s.html

Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 06-06-2018 at 01:42 PM.
vannwolfhawk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2018, 12:20 PM   #127
MVP
 
vannwolfhawk's Arena
 
OVR: 26
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Emerald City
Posts: 3,078
Blog Entries: 15
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

I just thought of 1 more thing and this is crazy! 2K just went to a new system this year as far as player motion off the ball and player movement within the plays which was a huge upgrade and gamechanger for a multitude of reasons but specifically it eliminated off ball bumping and plays taking too long to develop. Due to that fact the czar had to redo all the plays (every play) from scratch in this last game. Which in turn meant OG had to re counter all those plays defensively and they had to code it defensively. So, this year as opposed to the last few years there are actually far less plays then what they had previously. So all the plays added and ways to defend it were all implemented in this last and 1 cycle. Let’s marinate on that for a second...

In all fairness I will point out last year people had a lot of issues with the dumb defensive rotations that would happen. So it wasn’t a smooth transition but because of that it made for a great 2k18. It progressed and was added too. If madden applied it it would probably be a 1 step back to move 2 steps forward. How would that sit with everyone I don’t know.
__________________
Basketball Playbooks
http://www.nextplayhoops.com

Follow Here For NBA2k22 Playbook Updates
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...a-x-s-o-s.html
vannwolfhawk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2018, 02:25 PM   #128
MVP
 
OhMrHanky's Arena
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Aug 2012
Re: More info on RPM, Zone AI, signature styles in Madden 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S
I have no clue how soccer is played in real life. Seems thought, with AI programming, it would be similar to tethering players to other players within a zone radius, with additional tethering to the ball itself.



I think soccer would be relatively easier to program than american football. Which isn't saying much since I do not know the rules of soccer. Observing FifA and Madden, I can formulate a simpler path to connecting the programming dots, so to speak.



For one, contact is not as much of an issue in soccer; that eliminates a bunch of animations. Passing the ball in each game should be similar. Soccer players all seem to be skill player types, so programming seems like it would be closer to a copy & paste system. Madden has 5 skill positions, but 2 players, for example, a HB & FB have special logic from WRs, but could also become WRs.



Linemen are a major difference. These players have different logic rules and require closer contact, multiple contacts, spacial awareness, for example. There is also the "Mike" call, which does change logic on the fly.



Then there are zones which can be at least 10 different logic zones, of the top of my head. I don't see FifA having that many zone logic problems to solve. I could be wrong.



Anyway, I am rambling. I'll have to grab a soccer rule book now and see how dumb this post really looks to someone who knows soccer and programming.


I appreciate what you’re saying here, and I don’t have a full opinion on what’s harder to program, soccer or football. But, I’m an avid fifa online player and madden offline player. I’ve got to tell u, fifa has got plenty of man vs man jostling that is actually quite well done. When a ball is kicked high in the air, u absolutely have to fight for position, and that includes trying to push the defender back or forward to allow u possession of the ball. This includes trying to head the ball, trying to chest the ball, or simply pushing the D player out of the path. While this may not be truly akin to blocking linemen in football, it’s similar enough. And, fifa or any soccer title has to incorporate constant logic for all players playing a cohesive team based D and O at the same time as the ball is always in play. When the ball goes in the air, it’s similar enough to football that u normally have 1 player from each team (sometimes more than 1 as well) going for the ball similar to a wr/cb interaction. For football, u have to add in the ability to use your hands, of course, lol, and tackling. But, interestingly enough, tackling occurs in soccer as well, although meant to steal the ball, there are slide tackles and these need to be timed appropriately to work and the players’ ratings dictate how well they pull off these things.

Again, I won’t say one is harder than the other, but I think a misconception is that ‘football has so many different positions’ like oline compared to rb compared to wr, etc. While this is true, if the fundamental nature of the programming is truly physics based, than oline shouldn’t make a difference to rb. If u program strength, run block, blockshed, finesse move, etc appropriately, than any block can take place anywhere on the field. While pocket formation might seem different, the basic rule is ‘block the guy in front of me and stay between him and the qb’. Of course, diff oline assignements can make things more complicated. But, in general, with any ‘sports movement’, u need to start with basic rules, and then continue to add to them, really.

And, while I also appreciate someone earlier in thread mentioning the ‘when’ do u tell a wr to sit example, I mean, that’s the deal, that’s the programmer’s responsibility to figure that out and tweak it to sim or arcade specs. Sliders simply change the calculations some and u just allow them to do that. Again, while football may seem ‘specific’ to so many different interactions, and indeed, I think this is a reason to love the sport, the fact that anything can happen on any given play, everything has ‘rules.’ And, ultimately, the more rules u r able to apply in a positive fashion, the more realistic the game will be.

Overall, I do feel there are probably some calculations within madden that could prob be removed and/or reworked. And/or, as I mentioned in a previous post, I sometimes wonder what some of the underlying programming is doing. In my example, I mentioned a wr on post pattern and a SS coming to INT or hitstick the wr. Overall, I want to see both players playing and reacting to the ball, and, then at the moment of truth, there can be some calculations that determine how well each player plays the ball, or how the SS attempts a tackle on the wr. What I feel is programmed is this constant ‘player vs player’ interaction as opposed to ‘player vs ball’ interaction. This all speculation on my part, to be clear, but it’s just what the game feels like to me.

I’m sure there’s always a programming debate within any sports dev team as to ‘when does the player play the ball and when does he play the player.’ Ultimately, the best teams do this better. On top of that are ball physics. And, again, as a fifa and madden player, I can tell u from experience and from dev vids created for fifa 17, I believe (could’ve been 16, not sure), they have done AMAZING things with ball physics. U might think a round ball is easy to program, but I’m telling u, they have that ball moving correctly and the changes in spin depending on angle kicked and if deflected are FANTASTIC. Watching the ball alone in a replay where it bounces around and catches an awkward spin and whips into the goal is something that will always separate from madden. And, here again, is it easier to code for a round soccer ball or oblong football? Honestly, I’m not sure, a football is pretty unpredictable in real life, lol. But, I’d like to see less tethering of the ball in madden and give it spin physics and have the players fight to get to the spot. This is more what fifa is about. The ball is separate from the players completely, as far as I can tell. This still has not been incorporated into madden and would probably be a true game changer if it was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OhMrHanky is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:53 PM.

Top -