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Height & Weight Player Archetypes

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Old 06-12-2018, 02:29 PM   #33
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by briz1046
Not strictly relevant but I've long felt using Sproles as the example here is slightly unfair , he may be short but he's built, and at least earlier in his career had all round ability, just played behind Tomlinson, I think Reggie Bush or Chris Thompson would be better used
He's just the guy who came to mind. If the system was to reflect what a lot of people here are wanting, Sproles would be the higher rated elusive back, but then the system would select some stupid starters on CPU teams.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:38 PM   #34
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

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Originally Posted by adembroski
That is WAY the wrong way to think about archetype ratings.

They are not a measure of how good a player is at that thing. That's what the individual ratings are for. They are a measure of how effective the player is going to be in a scheme that favors that type of player.

Think of it this way; is there ANY scheme in which you'd take Darren Sproles over Ezekiel Elliott? **** no, even if it's a scheme that favors an elusive back, Zeek is an elite back and is going to be better NO MATTER WHAT the scheme is.

Sproles will have a higher elusiveness rating, but he wont have a higher elusive archetype rating because even in an elusive scheme, Elliott is a better back.

The archetype ratings reflect this.
I misspoke "Henry considered a good scheme fit for a team wanting an elusive back"...

But I hear ya, now Please tell me how you can determine if a player is a good fit without any consideration for height and weight? Silly...

Which is it? Because now it seems your saying its more than an XP modifier...

& How in the world would Derrick Henry fit the elusive mold better than someone like sproles, woodhead ect. .... Henry may be a better back... but he does not fit that scheme and would not have success in it....

No reason to bring up Zeke... Thats a pointless argument/conversaton...
I said players who aren't well rounded being represented as such...Zeke is well rounded... CLEARLY

Also, the archetypes and ratings go hand and hand... I've stated inlfation was an issue earlier in this thread.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:47 PM   #35
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

There's no reason size can't play into the ratings. We actually did do that in '13. Poorly, but it was there.

So I can't say why they didn't do it, except that maybe there's still disagreement as to how it should be implemented. I know was really unhappy how it was tuned in '13, but I didn't have any real say in it. Maybe it's being debated and they ended up deciding including it would be "overdesign" (which is a very real concern).

Anyways, the way it worked was to create splines that equated a certain weight or a certain height with a 1-99 rating. Then this converted number could be weighted and included in overall precisely the same way.

TBH I haven't seen clear evidence it's NOT being used. Again, when you consider archetype ratings the way I outlined above, OBJ is going to be rated higher than people who are taller and stronger just because he's so good he's a fit into any scheme, regardless of his height. Sure, the elite big men like Jones should be rated higher, but are you gonna take Harold Carmichael over OBJ in your Red Zone Threat offense just because he has greater high point range? No, because OBJ is going to catch a lot more of what he gets too than Carmichael.

As for leaving Elliott out of it; fine. I'll stick with Henry. He's still a better starter in any scheme than Sproles. If you have Henry and Sproles on the same team, Henry will start regardless of scheme. Now if you're talking about Sproles vs. Carlos Hyde we have an argument. Hyde will start in a power system, Sproles in an elusiveness system because they're closer in overall talent. The system is built to reflect these realities, not just rank people according to what they do best.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:59 PM   #36
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

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Originally Posted by Dallascs13


& How in the world would Derrick Henry fit the elusive mold better than someone like sproles, woodhead ect. .... Henry may be a better back... but he does not fit that scheme and would not have success in it....
I think the point is that a good player will inevitably rate higher under any archetype than a clearly inferior player , even if the second player is more typical of the desired type

That Henry may be overrated in general( and in particular in elusive rating) is a separate issue that is maybe clouding this

Also I believe one of additional ratings this year separates elusiveness and tackle breaking again back into separate ratings which should help
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:15 PM   #37
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

One other thing... since when is an 81 good?

81 OVR HBs in the official end-year '18 roster- Danny Woodhead, Frank Gore, Chris Ivory. Not exactly probowlers.

His 88 power back rating ranks him with Melvin Gordon and Alvin Kamara.

Dak's ratings range from 80-82. That puts him with Josh McCown, Blake Bortles, Ryan Tannehill. How is that overrated in any of those categories? It's underrated if anything. I'm no Dak Prescott fan, but you can't convince me 80 OVR is overrated.
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Last edited by adembroski; 06-12-2018 at 07:52 PM. Reason: I had said "default" roster, meant final official
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:57 PM   #38
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
That is WAY the wrong way to think about archetype ratings.

They are not a measure of how good a player is at that thing. That's what the individual ratings are for. They are a measure of how effective the player is going to be in a scheme that favors that type of player.

Think of it this way; is there ANY scheme in which you'd take Darren Sproles over Ezekiel Elliott? **** no, even if it's a scheme that favors an elusive back, Zeek is an elite back and is going to be better NO MATTER WHAT the scheme is.

Sproles will have a higher elusiveness rating, but he wont have a higher elusive archetype rating because even in an elusive scheme, Elliott is a better back.

The archetype ratings reflect this.

Yeah, you said this well....archetypes help to define the best fits (it's really more of a roster construction tool than a gameplay tool).

The concern I have (and we won't know till full ratings are released) is that historically, too many players have been too good at too many things. Madden rosters do a reasonable job of differentiating player strengths; but struggle in reflecting player weaknesses.

Looking at launch ratings from last year, take a look at LeGarette Blount: 94 Stiff Arm, 97 trucking....beautiful. The problem, 84 Juke and 83 spin. Those juke and spin move ratings are so high that he's going to use them far too often; the more he uses them in lieu of trucking or barreling through guys, the less he feels like a power back. Many other backs have similar issues (Lacy, Hill, Hyde, etc). Drop those into the 60s (for example) and those stiff arm/trucking traits really begin to shine through. But...this drops the overall and I think that basically, these "secondary ratings" were juiced a bit much to get the overalls in-sync. This is prevalent across the board, but RB is a really good position to see the issues.

This is where I am hopeful that the archetype system will shine. A more properly rated Blount (with depressed SPM/JKM ratigns) may only be a 70 overall baseline. But...ideally, his powerback skills reflect an overall of an 80ish in a power scheme. BUT....to get there, the baseline roster has to be built to accommodate that....and this to me is what is going to make or break the game.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:12 PM   #39
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
Yeah, you said this well....archetypes help to define the best fits (it's really more of a roster construction tool than a gameplay tool).

The concern I have (and we won't know till full ratings are released) is that historically, too many players have been too good at too many things. Madden rosters do a reasonable job of differentiating player strengths; but struggle in reflecting player weaknesses.

Looking at launch ratings from last year, take a look at LeGarette Blount: 94 Stiff Arm, 97 trucking....beautiful. The problem, 84 Juke and 83 spin. Those juke and spin move ratings are so high that he's going to use them far too often; the more he uses them in lieu of trucking or barreling through guys, the less he feels like a power back. Many other backs have similar issues (Lacy, Hill, Hyde, etc). Drop those into the 60s (for example) and those stiff arm/trucking traits really begin to shine through. But...this drops the overall and I think that basically, these "secondary ratings" were juiced a bit much to get the overalls in-sync. This is prevalent across the board, but RB is a really good position to see the issues.

This is where I am hopeful that the archetype system will shine. A more properly rated Blount (with depressed SPM/JKM ratigns) may only be a 70 overall baseline. But...ideally, his powerback skills reflect an overall of an 80ish in a power scheme. BUT....to get there, the baseline roster has to be built to accommodate that....and this to me is what is going to make or break the game.
Agree I think they should have a far greater differential in player ratings and use more of the 1-99 scale rather than what it feels like using only 70-99
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:58 PM   #40
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Re: Height & Weight Player Archetypes

i prefer the tighter 70-99 ratings scale for position specific ratings and the 1-99 one for non specific stuff. maybe that defensive tackle reallllly can't catch. cool 30. but to give a wide receiver a 30 out of 99 makes no sense to me, he's in the NFL. also i feel like the Height/Weight stuff is overblown. does it help a little, sure, but OBJ is every bit the Red zone threat that Julio is and it's because they can catch anything thrown to them. jump balls aren't the only route in the red zone.

P.S.
Henry is every bit of 80 elusiveness. So was Jerome Bettis. ya'll wildin'!! i see those guys make people miss every game.
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