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Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Old 06-19-2018, 07:13 PM   #129
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk
I have posted about this before somewhere and I get your saying we arenít comparing apples to apples but will tell you a bit...

Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap. In each of those scenarios and do the math in how many you could get by mixing all of them you have to have the other players rotate. How these players rotate is used in your coaching adjustments. How does player x guard player y? Does he play him tight, play the gap, sag off, etc. then how does the defense respond to the person with the ball? Do they help, double on the drive, or stay home. Same goís for the post player. Do you want to double on the catch, dribble, or dig in on him? What about how we play vs a shooter or non shooter coming off pin downs or staggers? Do we want to go over the screen, under the screens, or switch the screens? Again, everyone else has to be coded to rotate under that circumstance and how you chose to defend all the above scenarios. Keep in mind this is 1 scenario out of 1 play defensively.

Offensively you have guys reading to curl, flare fill, or cut. Which organically makes all the other players have to act accordingly. When you break it all down even though there are 10 players compared to 22 itís super deep in 2k. Also keep in mind they have 500-1000 plays that need to be coded to defensively for counters to how the offense is playing as well as each scenario that the CPU might need to defend it at anytime throughout a game. Also keep in mind these adjustments happen on the fly by the CPU AI.

In football how many coverages are there? I think if Iím a zone you can separate by position right? So then break down the route concepts from there out of different looks. I honestly donít THINK it would be as hard in madden actually as it would 2k considering.

Iím sure Iím missing things in 2k and thatís just on the fly and off the top of my head...
Alright, excellent. Thank you for the breakdown. So, defensively about 11 zones? That was more than I would have guessed.

In M18 I have over 20 based on the following link. I do not know how to consider the logic in the trenches. Obviously offensive and defensive line play needs a lot of work.

https://www.madden-school.com/madden...ve-hot-routes/
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:15 PM   #130
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S
Alright, excellent. Thank you for the breakdown. So, defensively about 11 zones? That was more than I would have guessed.

In M18 I have over 20 based on the following link. I do not know how to consider the logic in the trenches. Obviously offensive and defensive line play needs a lot of work.

https://www.madden-school.com/madden...ve-hot-routes/
11? Where did you get that?

Edit: Ok... so let’s say I’m hard hedging with my center. I can go over, under, etc with my guard. You can get 5-6 different pnr scenarios out of 1 choice. Then 5-6 more out of soft hedge, etc. that’s just for on ball screen defense. That’s not factoring in the other things I mentioned previously. I’d say you could defend 25-50 different ways if not more in just 1 play or in how the offense is set up. Keep in mind 1 pnr might come from the sideline, wing, top key, etc. so you might have 3 players on the weak side in 1 play while 2 on another and 1 on the strong side. My point is it’s crazy deep and very much in tuned to real life and what we see on the court and tv. Is there room for improvement? Of course! But that’s the depth of just 1 play...
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Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 06-19-2018 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:22 PM   #131
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk
11? Where did you get that?
"Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap."


I do not know basketball terminology. So I was hoping NBA2k zones had labels which could be listed to then compare, at top level first, where zone logic stood between the games.

I was hoping to departmentalize zones for comparison to make it easier to compare and understand as opposed to comparing both games as a whole..
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:24 PM   #132
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

I think one thing that should be kept in mind too, is the length of time any of these developers have been working on their given series. I don't know about NBA 2k but it seems like Madden has several people coming and going every few years. I would think that would slow down the innovation of a game.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:30 PM   #133
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S
"Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap."


I do not know basketball terminology. So I was hoping NBA2k zones had labels which could be listed to then compare, at top level first, where zone logic stood between the games.

I was hoping to departmentalize zones for comparison to make it easier to compare and understand as opposed to comparing both games as a whole..
Gotcha, sorry! I thought you understood a bit. I did edit my above post though. Hopefully that makes more sense...
Also that example was just for man to man defense. They do have zone defenses as well but that’s not as deep and not nearly as much. But in Madden in man to man defense you guard your man. Pretty simple. In 2k zones are simpler than madden which zones need the majority of work. But that’s why they have touched in zones 3 years in a row now and I will say madden has gotten better each year defensively in zones! But unfortunately they neglect all other areas and just put to much focus on that 1 areausually...
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Last edited by vannwolfhawk; 06-19-2018 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:36 PM   #134
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

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Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk
Gotcha, sorry! I thought you understood a bit. I did edit my above post though. Hopefully that makes more sense...
My fault here in that I didn't really make it clear how lacking in knowledge I was in regards to basketball. Honestly, I just started really watching it during this year's post-season. The playoffs got me interested more in basketball and I recently purchased NBA2k17 just to check it out. But I have only had the game about 3 weeks and really do not know a lot about the game and all it allows a user to do.

From your edited comment above, I do hope Madden will one day allow users to micro-manage coverages. I would like the ability to tell a CB to watch a slant or drag, specifically. It appears NBA2k allows for more user control, which I like.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:38 PM   #135
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

Also don't forget that each AI controlled player on a Madden defense now behaves with full knowledge of the other's players assignments and they adjust their behavior accordingly. The number of possible permutations in a game of Madden is orders of magnitude higher than those in a basketball game.

5 on 5 basketball was achieved in video games years before Madden debuted. It's just easier to do because it has fewer moving parts which means less processing power is required.

In terms of meta-strategy football is also much more complex because it has so many more game states than basketball. In basketball one only needs to consider the score, the time left on the clock, who has possession, and the current foul situation. In football you must account for the score, possession, and time remaining from every possible combination of field position and down and distance.

The phrase "apples and oranges" doesn't even do justice to how unfair the comparison is. It's more like video game football is chess and video game basketball is checkers.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:58 PM   #136
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Re: Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

Was browsing some Reddit threads on NBA2K18 defense. Seems like just as many complaints about their defense as there is about Madden defense.

Seeing complaints that the defense is not very good AI-wise, but there are plenty of options to manually set defense. And like with Madden, people complain that they shouldn't have to manually tell their defense what to do and when all the time. That the defense AI and ratings should handle a lot of the situations. Someone on a thread noted that a coach doesn't tell a player like Curry how to setup on a play; paraphrasing. I see that same complaint in Madden threads.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comme...have_the_same/
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