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What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Old 06-27-2018, 07:25 PM   #41
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by adembroski
No, not at all. That's not what I don't like about FOF, clearly.

FOF feels too much like OOTP. And that feel, that stat-heavy, pure numbers and odds feel, is appropriate for baseball. For football, I can't think tactically because every play is in isolation. The CPU doesn't adjust to my team, it has a percentage chance of calling any given play. They don't call a cover 3 to get 8 in the box because I'm tearing them up in the run game, they call a cover 3 because they call cover 3 in this situation 38% of the time and the dice roll dictated it's time.

Baseball is much less tactically complex. You might send the runner to create a hole in the infield or bunt a guy to 3rd if you've got a power hitter coming up next, but you know how the defense is going to react to these and you can't really 'fake' one thing to pull the outfield out of position. You can more or less simulate the sport in one-on-one isolation plays and have a pretty accurate reflection of the game. In football, every individual action affects the play, and every play affects the next one. There is no isolating what happens on a football field.

Who caused the dropped pass? Was it the FS hitting the receiver as the ball arrived? Was in the DT who pressured the QB into a bad pass? Was in the QB who repositioned into the DTs path? Was it the DE who clubbed inside against the T to force the QB off his spot? Was it the T who over positioned outside to stop the speed rush? Was in the SAM backer who had attempted the speed rush the play before? Was it the coach who called a double-under front to force the offense into 2-jet protection, leaving the LT on an island with two potential rushers? Was it the QB who called the 2-jet to counter the 2 under tackles?

Even if you accept the isolation of everything, FOF is all very simplistic. This front is good against the run, that route beats that coverage... much of it is actually wrong and furthermore, even when it's ostensibly "right," it's an oversimplification. 3-4 generates more pressure. Ok, why? How do I counter that? In FOF, you don't. If the opponent's in 3-4, they have a higher chance of getting pressure, period, than if they were in 3-4. In football, it's not that simple.

Goalline Blitz is a more accurate simulation of football than FOF, even if it doesn't quite end up with realistic stats. It's much better at simulating the dynamics of the game so that tactical decisions are more realistic.

I'm not arguing any of this I am just wondering what it has to do with what I originally said? No one here is arguing if baseball is more complex than football in certain aspects. You simplified a lot of things with regards to the sport, but that is neither here nor there. I was simply pointing out that most of the enjoyment from those games comes from the franchise features, not the on field simulations. Features that Madden would really be doing themselves a service by adding to get CFM up to par.
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Old 06-28-2018, 02:53 PM   #42
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by canes21
I'm not arguing any of this I am just wondering what it has to do with what I originally said? No one here is arguing if baseball is more complex than football in certain aspects. You simplified a lot of things with regards to the sport, but that is neither here nor there. I was simply pointing out that most of the enjoyment from those games comes from the franchise features, not the on field simulations. Features that Madden would really be doing themselves a service by adding to get CFM up to par.
It was a tangent, nothing more. FOF tends to get glorified by simheads, but it's really not that good.
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Old 06-28-2018, 04:58 PM   #43
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by adembroski
It was a tangent, nothing more. FOF tends to get glorified by simheads, but it's really not that good.

Which highlights just how much the off the field features add to the game.
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:23 AM   #44
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
No, not at all. That's not what I don't like about FOF, clearly.

FOF feels too much like OOTP. And that feel, that stat-heavy, pure numbers and odds feel, is appropriate for baseball. For football, I can't think tactically because every play is in isolation. The CPU doesn't adjust to my team, it has a percentage chance of calling any given play. They don't call a cover 3 to get 8 in the box because I'm tearing them up in the run game, they call a cover 3 because they call cover 3 in this situation 38% of the time and the dice roll dictated it's time.

Baseball is much less tactically complex. You might send the runner to create a hole in the infield or bunt a guy to 3rd if you've got a power hitter coming up next, but you know how the defense is going to react to these and you can't really 'fake' one thing to pull the outfield out of position. You can more or less simulate the sport in one-on-one isolation plays and have a pretty accurate reflection of the game. In football, every individual action affects the play, and every play affects the next one. There is no isolating what happens on a football field.

Who caused the dropped pass? Was it the FS hitting the receiver as the ball arrived? Was in the DT who pressured the QB into a bad pass? Was in the QB who repositioned into the DTs path? Was it the DE who clubbed inside against the T to force the QB off his spot? Was it the T who over positioned outside to stop the speed rush? Was in the SAM backer who had attempted the speed rush the play before? Was it the coach who called a double-under front to force the offense into 2-jet protection, leaving the LT on an island with two potential rushers? Was it the QB who called the 2-jet to counter the 2 under tackles?

Even if you accept the isolation of everything, FOF is all very simplistic. This front is good against the run, that route beats that coverage... much of it is actually wrong and furthermore, even when it's ostensibly "right," it's an oversimplification. 3-4 generates more pressure. Ok, why? How do I counter that? In FOF, you don't. If the opponent's in 3-4, they have a higher chance of getting pressure, period, than if they were in 3-4. In football, it's not that simple.

Goalline Blitz is a more accurate simulation of football than FOF, even if it doesn't quite end up with realistic stats. It's much better at simulating the dynamics of the game so that tactical decisions are more realistic.
Wait, why do we have to choose? Why can't we have the deep managerial elements of FOF and the presentation elements of 2K?
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:16 PM   #45
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

I get the desire for hardcore guys to have it more in depth, but what is being asked for (in the OP) is far further than most gamers go.

I played football for 12 years but stopped after High School. I know the game well but have no knowledge of the in depth play calling systems used at the pro level. I wouldn’t understand half the stuff the op wants in the game.

I agree that the formations and play names are rather rudimentary, but I think it’s better that way. It’s easier for a gamer to remember he likes to run “shotgun doubles corner strike” and easier to find it than “z piggy wiggly x slant double mayo mustard hold the pickles booger sugar 12 on one on one”

Less complex play calls don’t kill the immersion for me. I agree that it would be nice to have a learning curve for players when they come to your team. They’re heading in the right direction though with scheme fits and confidence effecting overall (guys I trade for have low confidence for a few weeks till they know the playbook)

I get what other guys say too about more complex calling on defense, ie calling different stuff for the line, backers and cbs. Again, probably pretty difficult to set up in the playcall menu. Adjusting it at the line is a fair compromise to me.


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Old 07-01-2018, 12:26 PM   #46
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverBullet19
I get the desire for hardcore guys to have it more in depth, but what is being asked for (in the OP) is far further than most gamers go.

I played football for 12 years but stopped after High School. I know the game well but have no knowledge of the in depth play calling systems used at the pro level. I wouldn’t understand half the stuff the op wants in the game.

I agree that the formations and play names are rather rudimentary, but I think it’s better that way. It’s easier for a gamer to remember he likes to run “shotgun doubles corner strike” and easier to find it than “z piggy wiggly x slant double mayo mustard hold the pickles booger sugar 12 on one on one”

Less complex play calls don’t kill the immersion for me. I agree that it would be nice to have a learning curve for players when they come to your team. They’re heading in the right direction though with scheme fits and confidence effecting overall (guys I trade for have low confidence for a few weeks till they know the playbook)

I get what other guys say too about more complex calling on defense, ie calling different stuff for the line, backers and cbs. Again, probably pretty difficult to set up in the playcall menu. Adjusting it at the line is a fair compromise to me.


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I disagree with the bold part especially. It's already been done in other football games and was simple. I've been wanting Madden to incorporate that at the very least for years now. It'd go a long ways for defensive schemes.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:16 PM   #47
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by roadman
Isn't that defeating the purpose of Arcade and Competitive Modes?



That would mean more people hired, more salaries plus benes.



And if people purchase those games, what happens to Madden?



I just don't see EA taking that risk.


Plus, I honestly don’t think they have the manpower to be working on 3 games at once. Great concept in theory, but I just don’t see it working out.


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Old 07-01-2018, 11:28 PM   #48
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by canes21
I disagree with the bold part especially. It's already been done in other football games and was simple. I've been wanting Madden to incorporate that at the very least for years now. It'd go a long ways for defensive schemes.


I can appreciate that point. What I really meant is I feel it would take a lot of time to make the playcall. I personally like the short 10 second timer, as if you’re running out of time to get set before the offense is lined up. I feel it’s pretty realistic to have that very short time period to get your defense called, and I think it would be difficult to make the different calls for each part of the defense in that short time. That’s just me though


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