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What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Old 06-21-2018, 09:54 PM   #1
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What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

We can talk about all of the new presentation or commentary features. We can look at all the slick new graphics, or adding in a new physics engine. None of that really matters until the core issue with Madden is fixed: not appealing to serious football fans and gamers.


I get that MUT makes them money. I get that many players want to score 100 points in an arcade-style game. But I'd LOVE to see a REAL sim football game. Specifically when it comes to QB play.


There are already fantastic suggestions for Madden out there, such as @TMJOHNS18 fan concept, or the progression system by @triplechin. But so much could be done to change Madden for the better. Forever.


I mean, why is first-person camera no longer a thing, especially for QBs? Why can we only do full slide protection? Why can't we be in the huddle with the QB? Hell, I'd love to be able to actually call plays through the mic. Or call dummy audibles with live and dead colors.


Little details like that would make the game so much better. Or make DL play more than just pretty much two buttons. Make it so that you actually have to make reads, and can react based on that. For example, if you read a high-hat, you trigger a pass rush. But a pull away? Depending on the OT's angle, you could go under, around, or stalemate. A la Rex Ryan's chapter on DL play in his book.


Why is the 4-2-5 not in Madden? Why can we not split the front 7 and secondary calls? Why are there still superhuman, physic LBs that can jump 7 feet in the air?


I want to be able to have split-field coverage, with halves on one side, and special on the other. I want to be able to use the R4 system on offense (which multiple NFL OCs DO use, as well as Dan Gonzalez-esque systems).


I want the communication systems (R4, Erhardt-Perkins, West Coast, etc.) to actually matter. Got a college QB coming from an Erhardt-Perkins system in college, like Hackenburg from Penn State? He'll struggle to learn the ridiculous verbiage that come with Spider 2 Y Banana X Split Z Out Bronco Cavalier 22 Red Viking.


I want to ability to spill or box. I want the ability to log block a defender who wrong-arms too narrow. This isn't impossible stuff. It wouldn't take billions to simply add more refined control of our schemes and players.



I want the ability to choose between two-gapping, one-gapping, or TGOG. I want to see a realistic pass rush, and real pass pro technique coming into play.


I want the ability to create my own blitzes. Why can I not do the NCAA blitz? This, in conjunction with being given the ability to call different protections, would lead to more realistic line interactions.


This is not to rant against Madden. It's better than having no football game at all. But I can't see myself buying another Madden again until it's AT LEAST as good as APF2k8.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:41 PM   #2
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

I think a big reason why it's going to be a long time before we see a lot of what you wrote about is because the vast majority of Madden players simply do not understand football at the level that some of the most passionate people here do.

For example, I've been playing football video games since I was like five years old in one form or another. However, I never played a single down of organized football because I was too small as a kid and my parents thought it was too dangerous. Even though I understand football today more than almost anyone I know in-person (which is not saying much compared to some people here, none of my friends played organized football either), there's a lot of football concepts I simply don't understand. Just in your post alone, I had no idea what "R4", "spill", "box", "log block", or "TGOG" meant until I went to Google. I have no idea what is proper or improper pass blocking technique. Imagine trying to explain these concepts to someone who doesn't even know what "slot receiver" means, or to someone whose primary interactions with the NFL is watching on Sunday, playing fantasy football, and playing Madden.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for people who haven't lived a football life to learn these concepts from video games; clearly, it's not. Madden has taught me how pattern-matching zones work, for example; I admit I had no idea what a pattern match zone was before Madden 17 introduced me to the concept. What I am saying, however, is that any advanced concept Madden introduces, Tiburon must also build devices in the game to teach the concept to a gamer population which is probably completely unfamiliar with what the thing is and why it is important. That's a lot more effort.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:50 PM   #3
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
I think a big reason why it's going to be a long time before we see a lot of what you wrote about is because the vast majority of Madden players simply do not understand football at the level that some of the most passionate people here do.

For example, I've been playing football video games since I was like five years old in one form or another. However, I never played a single down of organized football because I was too small as a kid and my parents thought it was too dangerous. Even though I understand football today more than almost anyone I know in-person (which is not saying much compared to some people here, none of my friends played organized football either), there's a lot of football concepts I simply don't understand. Just in your post alone, I had no idea what "R4", "spill", "box", "log block", or "TGOG" meant until I went to Google. I have no idea what is proper or improper pass blocking technique. Imagine trying to explain these concepts to someone who doesn't even know what "slot receiver" means, or to someone whose primary interactions with the NFL is watching on Sunday, playing fantasy football, and playing Madden.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for people who haven't lived a football life to learn these concepts from video games; clearly, it's not. Madden has taught me how pattern-matching zones work, for example; I admit I had no idea what a pattern match zone was before Madden 17 introduced me to the concept. What I am saying, however, is that any advanced concept Madden introduces, Tiburon must also build devices in the game to teach the concept to a gamer population which is probably completely unfamiliar with what the thing is and why it is important. That's a lot more effort.
And I completely agree. I think not having that knowledge is the biggest hurdle. But by having it in the game, not only would it please the football nerds, but more people would be able to learn about the game of football.


For example, every single defense in the NFL is primarily a spill team or a box team. It completely changes how the entire defense is structured. Not going to explain it in this post unless someone would like me to (in which case, I'd be glad to), but the fact that such a vital concept is not in the game is definitely a huge negative to me. I mean, if you have a good DE and LB that can spill to the safeties, no team can consistently run power on you.



Madden 17 introduced gap play, and I think they should expand on it with spilling and boxing.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:57 PM   #4
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

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Originally Posted by ClintDon
For example, every single defense in the NFL is primarily a spill team or a box team. It completely changes how the entire defense is structured. Not going to explain it in this post unless someone would like me to (in which case, I'd be glad to), but the fact that such a vital concept is not in the game is definitely a huge negative to me. I mean, if you have a good DE and LB that can spill to the safeties, no team can consistently run power on you.

Maybe not in this thread so we could keep the focus on Madden in specific, but personally Id be thrilled if some people on OS put together a thread or series of threads in the Pro Football forum chock full of layman-level explanations of advanced football concepts. I enjoy learning about the game I watch on Sundays and play on a console on other days, haha.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:27 AM   #5
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

M18 has force and contain defenders. From my understanding the contain stops the spill. The box forces the play inside.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:27 AM   #6
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

I see where you are coming from Hooe, but like past conversations between us, I will point to another game. NBA 2k18. It's a very deep game in its strategy side. I don't know a whole lot about basketball, I've learned more from playing it, but it does a great job of being as deep as the user wants it. Someone like me and you who knows what isolation and pick and roll means can still play the game and get a realistic game of basketball. Someone like others on here who know all about hedging screens, whatever that means, can go as deep as they want in their playing of the game on the court and strategically and get just as realistic of a game.




Madden could really nail down a lot of what was listed in the OP and it would all be done by the AI and not need user input. What EA/Tiburon could do is build a training course to teach the concepts. They could have a basic level, intermediate level, and advanced level. They could put you through drills to show you how all of the concepts work and what their strengths/weaknesses are, and they could then put you in a challenge to see how well you learned and to get you experience so it does stick more.




I think it is a mistake for a game to stay simplified because you're scared of what the casuals will think. Good games allow the users to go as deep as they want. If Madden had all of these details, but offered many options so the casual fan could have a streamlined experience where they pick plays the same way they do now, it'd be great. The curious ones would be able to go deeper, and the hardcore fans could really have fun and have the chess match they wanted.


I do believe that it would open up the gates for the competitive community to learn more football concepts themselves and that in turn would lead to the casuals getting exposed to them as well. We know good and well those guys are going to do all they can to get an advantage and I think it would be a ripple affect where guys in that scene start to go deeper and deeper with the strategy elements before the majority of the crowd is really taking it all in and learning so many concepts and starting to really develop unique playstyles. Right now the meta is so simplified and there are a few ways to play to win. You start adding incredibly deep layers like this thread mentions and you'll see these comp guys having so many ways they can build a team and their style of play that the meta will be more open just like the real sport of football.


The goal shouldn't be to avoid going too deep for the fear of overwhelming the casuals, it should be going as deep as possible and figuring out ways to keep options available that streamline the game as much or little as each user desires.


EDIT: I must have skipped your last paragraph somehow. I see you are basically saying what I just typed out. It can be done, but the devs definitely have to offer options so that every user can keep things as simple as they'd like.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:34 AM   #7
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

I agree that those are some real legit concepts lol I didn't know a good amount of them either. But I feel like it would be possible to have that level of detail and cater to everyone with the different playstyles and maybe some other kind of tuning/tweaking.

It would be interesting if the comp scene started to get into that level of strategy if it became advantageous, I think a lot of people would learn a lot about football through Esport.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:44 AM   #8
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Re: What Madden Needs Is A Shift In Priorities

I want all those things you mentioned OP. But Madden is just to popular to get to that detail UNLESS they actual have different play selection menus.

I've said on here before that the play selection in Madden IS NOT realistic at all. The beauty of play calling and why I loved playing football was the defensive play calling where you call a formation, dline stunt/game and coverage. You could have the same formation and coverage, but different D line stunts going on each snap.
Whereas in Madden you call 4-3 cover 3 and are rushing to move players where you want (often times they move back).

What gets me is EA and Madden Deb team have the resources to NFL masterminds and someone that played collegiate football.

Soooooo that sort of makes me believe its either a publishing company battle or a game engine dilemma



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