Defensive Holding?

[NimitsTexan]

I am never happy losing. But I would just as well lose due to a penalty call as anything else.

If we are going to take out things that make players mad, might as well take out fumbles and interceptions, too.

[DeuceDouglas]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Hypothetical scenario: imagine you are playing a game in your online league's Super Bowl as the Rams. Late fourth quarter of a back-and-forth game, you're up by 2 and on defense. On 4th down, your star CB Jalen Ramsey - who has progressed to MCV / ZCV / PRS / AWR / PRC 99 at this point - commits defensive pass interference on the final drive of the game to put your opponent in range for a chip-shot game-winning field goal. Yes, that's "sim" because Jalen Ramsey can commit DPI in real life on any given play in real life; even though he's awesome, he's still a defensive back in the NFL so he's going to get flagged at some point, that's just the way it is. However, would you honestly be happy with losing a game of Madden on account of such an extremely unlucky dice roll that triggered one of your best players doing something so costly and completely outside of your control? Is that really actually something you would enjoy experiencing in Madden? To be clear, there's no right or wrong answer here. We already know what side of the fence Tiburon falls on and how the game's development is going to progress, but it's interesting to know what others think about this.

I think using the "Imagine This" hypothetical game followed up with the most extreme situation possible is a perfect way to make a terrible argument for or against something. Let's not look logically at the benefits and drawbacks of penalties and/or how they could help differentiate the simulation game style from it's counterparts, let's just jump immediately to a 0.001% scenario paired with a rhetorical question with the intention of eliciting a specific answer.

If you insert [something that causes person to lose the Super Bowl on the final play] into any hypothetical scenario, especially one where all the variables are then completely skewed as well, you'd be hard pressed to find anything that would be considered "fun." Incomplete passes, blocked field goals, fumbles, broken tackles, interceptions, literally anything can be inserted into that situation and you'd come away with the same answer. Just like if I say imagine you're in the third quarter of the fourth preseason game and the 10th CB on your roster gets flagged for pass interference, would you honestly care about that?

But to answer the question, obviously no. In that very specific moment it wouldn't be fun. But over the course of the season and multiple seasons, playing through games and knowing that the dynamic was possible and a factor in every game I played creating different obstacles and dynamics within each individual game and that the match ups and way I built my roster could factor into how those obstacles and dynamics played out, it would result in a better overall and authentic experience that with what I prefer personally, would make the game more fun.

[GrayDawg]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

To the bold specifically: this is a good thing? I mean, I get the whole sim ethos is "everything you see on Sunday". I don't necessarily agree, however, that taking control of the result of a video game so obviously out of the user's hands with a penalty triggered by an unlucky dice roll is so easily justified by "it's sim". Hypothetical scenario: imagine you are playing a game in your online league's Super Bowl as the Rams. Late fourth quarter of a back-and-forth game, you're up by 2 and on defense. On 4th down, your star CB Jalen Ramsey - who has progressed to MCV / ZCV / PRS / AWR / PRC 99 at this point - commits defensive pass interference on the final drive of the game to put your opponent in range for a chip-shot game-winning field goal. Yes, that's "sim" because Jalen Ramsey can commit DPI in real life on any given play in real life; even though he's awesome, he's still a defensive back in the NFL so he's going to get flagged at some point, that's just the way it is. However, would you honestly be happy with losing a game of Madden on account of such an extremely unlucky dice roll that triggered one of your best players doing something so costly and completely outside of your control? Is that really actually something you would enjoy experiencing in Madden? To be clear, there's no right or wrong answer here. We already know what side of the fence Tiburon falls on and how the game's development is going to progress, but it's interesting to know what others think about this.

In all the thousands of games I have played in Madden this has never happened and it likely never will. But at the end of the day if I allowed a mistake or a poor dice roll to beat me then I deserve the loss because it wasn't that play that lost the game ultimately. It was all the rest that got me to that point. Just like in football we need to have no excuses mentality.

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[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by GrayDawg

In all the thousands of games I have played in Madden this has never happened and it likely never will. But at the end of the day if I allowed a mistake or a poor dice roll to beat me then I deserve the loss because it wasn't that play that lost the game ultimately. It was all the rest that got me to that point. Just like in football we need to have no excuses mentality. Sent from my SM-G960U using Operation Sports mobile app

I wish that worked IRL because all of a sudden the Packers are the beneficiary of calls in a game.

Let's not think every team is null and void on this.

I definately see both sides of this even though I campaign hard(not hard enough I guess) about having PI and DH show up more in user vs cpu games.

If 25 grand is on the line, if I put my shoes on the other feet, I can see the other sides point as well.

That's why I'm going back to my theory that tuning for different modes creates a mess elsewhere in the game, ie animations, etc....

[edaddy]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

I think using the "Imagine This" hypothetical game followed up with the most extreme situation possible is a perfect way to make a terrible argument for or against something. Let's not look logically at the benefits and drawbacks of penalties and/or how they could help differentiate the simulation game style from it's counterparts, let's just jump immediately to a 0.001% scenario paired with a rhetorical question with the intention of eliciting a specific answer. If you insert [something that causes person to lose the Super Bowl on the final play] into any hypothetical scenario, especially one where all the variables are then completely skewed as well, you'd be hard pressed to find anything that would be considered "fun." Incomplete passes, blocked field goals, fumbles, broken tackles, interceptions, literally anything can be inserted into that situation and you'd come away with the same answer. Just like if I say imagine you're in the third quarter of the fourth preseason game and the 10th CB on your roster gets flagged for pass interference, would you honestly care about that? But to answer the question, obviously no. In that very specific moment it wouldn't be fun. But over the course of the season and multiple seasons, playing through games and knowing that the dynamic was possible and a factor in every game I played creating different obstacles and dynamics within each individual game and that the match ups and way I built my roster could factor into how those obstacles and dynamics played out, it would result in a better overall and authentic experience that with what I prefer personally, would make the game more fun.

Excellent points my man..Just to piggy back I can remember in Madden 16 actually strategizing my defense and shading based on the fact that there was a potential for DH or PI to be called.I lost plenty of games deciding to press a wr on the last drive of the game and getting flagged because of fatigue and discipline problems. ..but in this is the same dilemma that defensive coordinators must take into account every time they man up or want to become aggressive.. This is part of football and it heightens the immersion factor and enjoyment of the game .. My thing is if you dont want random outcomes have at it on competitive or arcade mode.. but sim should be just that sim..flags are just as important in football as fouls are to basketball..I knew it was over when clint said flags aren't fun..If this type of logic permeates the developers logic there is no solution to the problem..Ive stated many times just because you played football it doesnt make you an expert on football..Unfortunately this developer logic is geared to the competitive crowd..That's the reality ...

[xCoachDx]

Quote: Originally Posted by sinthros

It's so dumb on EA's part because they literally create different styles of play (sim, comp, arcade) and don't use that to their advantage. All they ever had to do was turn it off for comp play and keep it for sim mode, and everyone would be happy. Instead they went full on tactical nuke and deleted defensive holding all together lol

It’s completely clear that the styles do not work in any way as intended. QB’s fumble so frequently when scrambling, aggressive catches RARELY work if a Play Receiver animation is triggered, I have no idea why they are even in the game.

Well, I do know why, it’s because EA can do what it wants and people still buy and buy and buy...


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[JoshC1977]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

That's why I'm going back to my theory that tuning for different modes creates a mess elsewhere in the game, ie animations, etc....

Yeah, it can definitely cause a mess, I agree 100% with that, but I'll take separate game modes every day and twice on Sunday.

Imagine playing defense on Madden. You're using a corner covering the WR on a post with a safety over the top. You have good coverage but need the safety to converge when the pass is in the air. The problem...he just stands there and does nothing until YOU take control of him (then of course, the corner's coverage drops off because you're not controlling him).

That's basically what EA did to FIFA this year to cater to H2H guys who wanted things to be "more manual" (i.e. easier). Anyone wanting to play a more ratings-oriented style vs the CPU in offline modes are S.O.L. because there is only one gameplay tuning for the game....and the sliders can't even "fix" the issue because its hard-coded.

Maybe "sim" style in Madden isn't as "sim" as we'd want it to be....but the alternative is deplorable.

[GrayDawg]

Quote: Originally Posted by JoshC1977

Yeah, it can definitely cause a mess, I agree 100% with that, but I'll take separate game modes every day and twice on Sunday. Imagine playing defense on Madden. You're using a corner covering the WR on a post with a safety over the top. You have good coverage but need the safety to converge when the pass is in the air. The problem...he just stands there and does nothing until YOU take control of him (then of course, the corner's coverage drops off because you're not controlling him). That's basically what EA did to FIFA this year to cater to H2H guys who wanted things to be "more manual" (i.e. easier). Anyone wanting to play a more ratings-oriented style vs the CPU in offline modes are S.O.L. because there is only one gameplay tuning for the game....and the sliders can't even "fix" the issue because its hard-coded. Maybe "sim" style in Madden isn't as "sim" as we'd want it to be....but the alternative is deplorable.

Josh that is some scary stuff right there. You're right the alternative is far worse.

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