I must be missing something after hearing reviews from the closed beta

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by PhillyPhanatic14

One of the hard things is that they just seem to not care. No matter how loud we are. It's been 2 whole years since Deuce wrote that masterpiece on Franchise mode and what have we seen them do with it? Nothing. Incredible ideas literally placed in their lap and we continually get modes nobody is asking for and nothing done to CFM. I care and I would love the game to be better, but after years of talking to a brick wall it's tough to have the energy to keep doing it. I'm going to point out the things that they lack in as i have opportunities, but honestly after years of this, for me at least, it's just better to be content and enjoy the product that we get.

Tiburon very obviously cares about the game they are building. To even suggest they don’t is hilariously ridiculous. On the flip side, no one in this community cares to understand the context in which this game (and other large video games) is built. It’s a willful misunderstanding.

Everyone has ideas. Everyone has fantastic ideas. Very few have the resources and discipline required to execute on ideas. Ideas alone are worthless currency in the video game industry.

Even Tiburon already has a treasure trove of ideas for Franchise mode. They pay dozens of game designers to generate new ideas and iterate upon existing ideas. They have designs for all our wishlist items, and they have designs for things we haven’t thought to wish for yet. (This is not unique to Tiburon; every serious game dev studio does this.)

Like many game dev studios, Tiburon doesn’t publicly talk about their ideas before they exist in an actual game. Ideas which only exist in game design documents and are several years away from possible implementation are worthless to the end user because a user can’t interact with a non-existent idea in-game. To a user, ideas on paper and not in-game might as well not exist at all.

Tiburon knows the strengths and weaknesses of their game far better than we do, and even with a team of triple-digit size there is only so much they can do in ten months. I know y’all are sick of hearing about this, but no amount of complaining about it is going to change the reality in which this game is built. Tiburon has to maximize those ten months to get a new and robust product better-than-last-year product on the shelf, and hardcore nitty-gritty items like restricted free agency unfortunately don’t move the needle for 90% of Madden users. They basically have to build features which the largest possible cross-section of their diverse audience will touch first and as many times as possible, and ancillary details second.

As an example, I speculate we’re getting the Pro Bowl back in Franchise primarily because it’s being used as a presentation item to more strongly deliver the new X-Factor and QB1 gameplay features, not because the Pro Bowl in isolation was a top priority improvement for Franchise. That adding the Pro Bowl back into the game helps Franchise in isolation is a nice side benefit.

A single manifesto by a forum poster, regardless what anyone here thinks of it, doesn’t even begin to move the needle, and Tiburon isn’t obligated to even acknowledge it, let alone make career-altering changes to their years-long Madden development plans on its account.

[PhillyPhanatic14]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Tiburon very obviously cares about the game they are building. To even suggest they don’t is hilariously ridiculous. On the flip side, no one in this community cares to understand the context in which this game (and other large video games) is built. It’s a willful misunderstanding.......

I think I wasn't as clear as i could have been. EA doesn't care. See my post at the top of this page. I get that the devs care and the fact that they aren't able to implement more things year over year shows that they need a larger team and based on the profits they make on Madden every year, they should have a massive team working on the game.

When we're given basically the same product every year and we know they're making stupid money on the game it's a bit frustrating. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Tiburon very obviously cares about the game they are building. To even suggest they don’t is hilariously ridiculous. On the flip side, no one in this community cares to understand the context in which this game (and other large video games) is built. It’s a willful misunderstanding. Everyone has ideas. Everyone has fantastic ideas. Very few have the resources and discipline required to execute on ideas. Ideas alone are worthless currency in the video game industry. Even Tiburon already has a treasure trove of ideas for Franchise mode. They pay dozens of game designers to generate new ideas and iterate upon existing ideas. They have designs for all our wishlist items, and they have designs for things we haven’t thought to wish for yet. (This is not unique to Tiburon; every serious game dev studio does this.) Like many game dev studios, Tiburon doesn’t publicly talk about their ideas before they exist in an actual game. Ideas which only exist in game design documents and are several years away from possible implementation are worthless to the end user because a user can’t interact with a non-existent idea in-game. To a user, ideas on paper and not in-game might as well not exist at all. Tiburon knows the strengths and weaknesses of their game far better than we do, and even with a team of triple-digit size there is only so much they can do in ten months. I know y’all are sick of hearing about this, but no amount of complaining about it is going to change the reality in which this game is built. Tiburon has to maximize those ten months to get a new and robust product better-than-last-year product on the shelf, and hardcore nitty-gritty items like restricted free agency unfortunately don’t move the needle for 90% of Madden users. They basically have to build features which the largest possible cross-section of their diverse audience will touch first and as many times as possible, and ancillary details second. As an example, I speculate we’re getting the Pro Bowl back in Franchise primarily because it’s being used as a presentation item to more strongly deliver the new X-Factor and QB1 gameplay features, not because the Pro Bowl in isolation was a top priority improvement for Franchise. That adding the Pro Bowl back into the game helps Franchise in isolation is a nice side benefit. A single manifesto by a forum poster, regardless what anyone here thinks of it, doesn’t even begin to move the needle, and Tiburon isn’t obligated to even acknowledge it, let alone make career-altering changes to their years-long Madden development plans on its account.

Why do you think the “way it is” is the way it should be?

I don’t dispute your assessment of the situation, but why is it acceptable to you?

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by PhillyPhanatic14

I think I wasn't as clear as i could have been. EA doesn't care. See my post at the top of this page. I get that the devs care and the fact that they aren't able to implement more things year over year shows that they need a larger team and based on the profits they make on Madden every year, they should have a massive team working on the game. When we're given basically the same product every year and we know they're making stupid money on the game it's a bit frustrating. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

No, miss me with this too. This is the uninformed criticism people who don't play sports games level at all sports games, and everyone here who follows any of the major sports games knows it's false.

Anyone who's played the Madden 20 beta knows it doesn't feel anything like playing Madden 19. Anyone who's played Madden 17 knows how much more intelligently it played than Madden 25. All of the Gen-4 games mop the floor with any of the Gen-3 and Gen-2 games in every capacity. Yes, even franchise. Especially franchise.

Seriously! I challenge any of you to revisit the Gen-2 franchise modes without using mods, game save editors, heavily modified rosters, imported draft classes, the Madden Manifesto coaching slider edits, and 32-team control. Just play those games as-is. I want you to honestly argue that the mechanics of those games produces compelling results without the ability to meaningfully direct player development, without competent-if-imperfect but instead totally braindead roster management AI, without balanced and diverse draft classes, etc. etc. Ignore for a moment the shallow bells and whistles we all wax nostalgic for (coordinators, player roles, Tony Bruno) and honestly try to tell me that the blood and guts of those old franchise modes produced something other than nonsensical and awful single-player experiences out-of-the-box. I played them too, on console and PC, and I know they didn't. What we have now though not yet the pie-in-the-sky everyone wants is very obviously more robust, smarter, more mechanically interesting, and more flexible by leaps and bounds.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞

Why do you think the “way it is” is the way it should be? I don’t dispute your assessment of the situation, but why is it acceptable to you?

Please identify to me exactly where in any of my posts I have said I am a fan of the current status-quo and that as a consumer I am 100% satisfied with what Madden NFL 20 is delivering with respect to Franchise mode.

[PhillyPhanatic14]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

No, miss me with this too. This is the uninformed criticism people who don't play sports games level at all sports games, and everyone here who follows any of the major sports games knows it's false. Anyone who's played the Madden 20 beta knows it doesn't feel anything like playing Madden 19. Anyone who's played Madden 17 knows how much more intelligently it played than Madden 25. All of the Gen-4 games mop the floor with any of the Gen-3 and Gen-2 games in every capacity. Yes, even franchise. Especially franchise. Seriously! I challenge any of you to revisit the Gen-2 franchise modes without using mods, game save editors, heavily modified rosters, imported draft classes, the Madden Manfesto coaching slider edits, and 32-team control. Just play those games as-is. I want you to honestly argue that the mechanics of those games produces compelling results without the ability to meaningfully direct player development, without competent-if-imperfect but instead totally braindead roster management AI, without balanced and diverse draft classes, etc. etc. Ignore for a moment the shallow bells and whistles we all wax nostalgic for (coordinators, player roles, Tony Bruno) and honestly try to tell me that the blood and guts of those old franchise modes produced something other than nonsensical and awful single-player experiences out-of-the-box. I played them too, on console and PC, and I know they didn't. What we have now though not yet the pie-in-the-sky everyone wants is very obviously more robust, smarter, more mechanically interesting, and more flexible by leaps and bounds.

I've played the beta and the gameplay feels great. I am 100% buying the new game. Where you're trying to take this is not where I'm coming from. I am not asking for Madden 05 franchise. I am asking for improvement year over year to franchise mode in meaningful ways. That hasn't happened. Yes, in a whole generation it happens, but year over year? Not a chance. I can't find the sales numbers for Madden 19, but it sold over 130 million copies in a week, so if we just assume nobody bought it after that first week - that's still $7.8 billion... In a week.... Obviously there's costs and the game doesn't always sell for $60, but dude you can't possibly tell me that you think the improvements to franchise this year are worthy of a game that made 7.8 billion dollars in a week. If they diverted $3.5 mill of that money they could hire 50 employees that make $70 k/yr and still have $7.4+ billion left over. Again, that doesn't take into account a lot of costs but it also doesn't take into account any sales after the first week or ANY microtransactions.


You cannot honestly tell me that you think they are putting an adequate amount of resources into this game based on the money that it makes for them.

[roadman]

Profits from games sound like a easy multiplier, but when you endure company wide layoffs, normally, expenses will be cut from each department's budget across the board and also play a factor what goes into the game and what is cut out. Typically, when a company has a layoff, they won't be spending more money than they did previous years until they rebound.

Having said that, hopefully, they will be able to rebound enough to put more of those profits you are discussing into the game year round and into the next game and the next one, etc... CFM needs more additional options.

[PhillyPhanatic14]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Profits from games sound like a easy multiplier, but when you endure company wide layoffs, normally, expenses will be cut from each department's budget across the board and also play a factor what goes into the game and what is cut out. Having said that, hopefully, they will be able to rebound enough to put more of those profits you are discussing into the game year round and into the next game and the next one, etc...

Yeah and I'm sure a lot of what Madden makes goes to make up for disappointing games like Battlefield V, Battlefront II, and Anthem. It's a shame that Tiburon seems handcuffed by them, but as i said earlier- it is what it is at this point. Madden doesn't seem like it will ever get the attention it deserves and that's why it's more beneficial to try and enjoy the improvements we get.