How many people really want SIM gameplay?

[xCoachDx]

Quote: Originally Posted by triggerfish1976

I don't think ignoring an actual strong attempt at doing what everyone has been asking which is to add more realism as looking in the wrong direction. The fact is, its quite realistic in those areas. Sure, there are still legacy issues with other aspects that do break immersion but I see a lot of people seemingly complaining about wanting sim but then realizing that it's too hard or not as glamourous. I think my point that I am trying to make is maybe we shouldn't be asking for too much realism if what you really want is something a bit more loose and fast. I mean look at Red Dead Redemption 2. Do you really want TV time outs in Madden?

Well that’s an entirely different point away from the game. If people’s wants are contradicting then that’s just whatever. Like someone wanting a nice car but not wanting to have a high car payment.

My annoyance is EA trying to implement realism in completely unrealistic ways. Like the double team feature. You can literally use a guard and tackle to double team an edge rusher. Which makes ZERO sense from a realism perspective. Just like wanting to add all of these RPOs without having the basic concepts of their blocking schemes down and instead just having them run around blocking whoever. NCAA 11 had a focus on correct blocking schemes and they did a great job of it. So we know it’s not impossible. There’s similar issues on defense as well.

Madden has a complete identity crisis. It doesn’t know if it’s a Sim game or something else. What cracks me up is thinking back to Backbreaker and how it was crucified for being the same way. Why does Madden get a pass for it? Just because it’s the only football game out there? If that’s the case, then that’s the exact sign of the hold EA has on the community.


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[khaliib]

Quote: Originally Posted by xCoachDx

Well that’s an entirely different point away from the game. If people’s wants are contradicting then that’s just whatever. Like someone wanting a nice car but not wanting to have a high car payment. My annoyance is EA trying to implement realism in completely unrealistic ways. Like the double team feature. You can literally use a guard and tackle to double team an edge rusher. Which makes ZERO sense from a realism perspective. Just like wanting to add all of these RPOs without having the basic concepts of their blocking schemes down and instead just having them run around blocking whoever. NCAA 11 had a focus on correct blocking schemes and they did a great job of it. So we know it’s not impossible. There’s similar issues on defense as well. Madden has a complete identity crisis. It doesn’t know if it’s a Sim game or something else. What cracks me up is thinking back to Backbreaker and how it was crucified for being the same way. Why does Madden get a pass for it? Just because it’s the only football game out there? If that’s the case, then that’s the exact sign of the hold EA has on the community. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You do know that Clint actually played at the NFL level right?

Also, that he’s utilizing access to “actual” NFL coaches feedback concerning what the game is allowing.

[therealsmallville]

Quote: Originally Posted by tril

simulation football- yes. simulation football should result in a a number of various final results based on user input. as long as important parts of the game dont function properly, one will never get a simulation experience. in addition there aren't enough user options in Madden to achieve this for most users seeking sim.

I'd argue that once you press a button on the controller, you're not really "sim" anymore. We have a view the players don't have, we can make decisions using data no real player has, we can use turbo, etc.

It's neither here nor there though, I suppose.


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[ggsimmonds]

In general I would say people genuinely want simulation football, but they overrate their understanding/knowledge of the game and are often times unwilling to put the necessary effort in (often I'm part of the latter group, cannot tell you how many times I've fumbled because of simply not being bothered enough to change ballcarrier to conservative when I know I should).

Having said that, I disagree with some of the specifics of the OP's post. Hit sticks do happen far too frequently. When I played against the Seahawks, Wagner had at least 6 blow up hit stick tackles. No, that is not realistic. There are too many big hits in one game of Madden.

Fumbles are a sore spot for me. Lamar Jackson and Mark Ingram were like 1 and 2 in the league in most fumbles and by a pretty sizable margin lol. But its my fault and I own up to it. I gotta stop juking in crowds, not using R1 to protect ball, etc. Its 100% on me but I can be lazy at times.

[PhillyFan22]

For the record I am someone who would love a sports game with no commentary, great atmosphere, great environments and just great gameplay that is fun. I don't play MUT only offline franchise, I mute the commentary everytime and never watch cut scenes. I want to feel like I am basically on the field.

SIM gameplay to me isn't stats and averages being realistic, but just being able to feel like the game I am playing is something I would see in real life. I want crazy plays and highlights and just overall enjoyment and fun, I don't watch football to make sure I see a QB have an "accurate completion %" or make sure that the teams stat averages are on par with historical league trends and so on.

So with that said to me the actual game play itself is almost perfect the way it is. It really isn't far off from being the best Madden from a pure gameplay standpoint. But my issue I have is that the problems that do happen with gameplay can ruin an entire game for me. Which when I am playing 10+ minute quarter games it is pretty disappointing to get that feeling and shut it off.

My biggest SIM issues are all legacy ones that annoyed me enough to not purchase this year. A few of which are I get on the goaline and come out in a shotgun run play. Well CPU knows this and comes out in goaline defense even though I have 4 WRs on the field.

Now for my trial experiences and issues with the past: The CPU QB is full robo QB and just feel nowhere near real life QB counterparts. It isn't the completion percentage that bothers me but the passes they throw. CPU teams still never take a risk and gamble for a 4th down and when they do it is a ridiculous punt fake, special teams play is still non existent. Just the CPU gameplay logic is terrible and playcalling especially on defense is awful.

When you combine all these little issues with things like the dry commentary, terrible player models, terrible sidelines, crowd noise and atmosphere, and presentation flaws the game to me is not worth my time. But, I still have time left on my trial to play post-patch and see if it gets cleaned up to a point where I could overlook these things once again....

[booker21]

Quote: Originally Posted by triggerfish1976

Madden 20 isn't perfect but I am seeing greater attention to detail than I've seen on a madden game to date as far as trying to add realism to the gameplay. Interestingly enough, the realism is actually creating issues with some gamers who aren't using the controls at their disposal to create a true simulation or are looking through the eyes of the videogame and not the real game. The complaints about fumbling and the hit stick are good examples. Let's start with the hit stick. It's not over-powered. It actually has added that much-needed force of impact that the NFL actually has. Watch a game, and someone is generally being blasted on every play. In past maddens hits were always too soft or slow and the lack of any sort of impactful feeling when players were tackled made it lack any sort of intensity or fear. I am fearful now to run the ball. The amping up of the speed of the players to more realistic levels and those cracking hits actually add a level of immersion that never existed before. I also see a pretty realistic use of them in regards to what you do as a runner or receiver. For example, I was running a crossing route with a small receiver, a rookie. The pass was over-thrown causing him to expose his body as he jumped and Bobby Wagner stuck me and the receiver's body actually buckled and I went backward abruptly. I felt the size difference and it registered on the screen. In the past, the receiver in this situation would do that play-doh looking crumble animation or would have gone stiff and bounced to the side or actually fall forward comically enough. On to the fumbles. The first few games that I played of this edition were full of fumbles. It wasn't I started to solve the problem by covering the ball when I was in traffic or right before I was about to take a big hit that I realized that the Devs actually put real ball-carrying logic into this, finally. Its actually pretty accurate and even make slight cuts so that you're not taking a head-on hit reduces the chance for fumbling. I've since played the game with the patch and I am back to being able to more arcade-style where I am just having to use the sticks and sprint. I kind of liked the way it was before the patch. For me, that's what sliders are for but I wonder if in some cases, people hate the idea of sliders but even the best designers can't account for all tastes so they all for gameplay adjustment. I really am loving the gameplay the more I play it and seeing these details emerge.

Well by your comments you are not one of the people who wants realism, it all depends on perspective

In NFL there are many hard hits but madden hit sticks are more from a WWE game than NFL game.

Regarding the fumbles topic you miss one key point. CPU DOES NOT USE IT. Neither your user teammates or CPU does cover the ball, the AI is not there yet. Same with sacks. Pass rush speed is great this year but there is no AI to handle that so you end up with an arcade fest game with 7 sacks per game and 5 fumbles leading the league in stats.

So yeah, that's not realism either.

The dream game for me would be a game were at the end of the season a friend come to my house and look through the stats and he can't be able to tell who was the user team., we are far away from that though.

[xCoachDx]

Quote: Originally Posted by khaliib

You do know that Clint actually played at the NFL level right? Also, that he’s utilizing access to “actual” NFL coaches feedback concerning what the game is allowing.

Yes, I’m aware of Clint being in the NFL. Which only makes the situation worse. I’m not sure what point you are making by throwing it out there.


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[Cardot]

Lots of folks on OS tend to make it a binary between sim and non-sim. But I look at it as more of a spectrum where 0 is an NFL Blitz arcade-fest, and 100 is pure simulation where every minute stat is spot on and games take 3 hours to play as you sit through every post play transition and tv time outs etc. Most of us are somewhere in between.....I am probably around 85.