Defending Trips

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by OhMrHanky

That’s interesting u like to run more zone against trips. I run almost exclusively man against trips. That way your DBs line up over their man and u don’t have a ‘lopsided’ D. With zone, I feel you’re one man short, in essence, on the trips side. That being said, I’m sure certain zones can cover properly, but I’ve always been big on man vs any type of trips formation. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you run the coach adjustment MAN ALIGN, your zones will shift so you aren't a man short on the trips side. The zones themselves don't change, but effectively it slides your coverage toward the trips side so they're in much better position vs the trips side.

The two downsides are:
- A weakside zone such as a weakside hard or curl flat may be coming from a MLB, which means he's out of position to help vs that weakside WR.
- You may be especially vulnerable to midfield crossers, since again your zones are stacked on the trips side.

Personally I like the man align coach adjustment, but you def need to understand its weaknesses.

[stinkubus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

As the resident Palms expert here in user v user games, what do you find gives the coverage itself issues? By that I mean not the coverage logic, but the ability for a defender to stay close enough to be good coverage. So let's say an outside vertical and inside corner route out of a 2x2 set vs C4 quarters, the logic is sound... CB takes the vertical and the safety takes the corner. But the corner may still be wide open because the coverage itself sucks? I'm just using the above as an example. I ran a lot of C4 Quarters in M19 in my CFM and largely had success with it but definitely got burned on some long TDs when the logic was sound but DBs just had a very tough time defending post routes even from an off-man alignment such as C4. From what I've seen, that's a little improved in M20--specifically coverage vs posts seems better. So I'm curious to know where you think your key vulnerabilities are in Palms vs a good user.

Deeper posts from inside receivers can be problematic, especially if the offense has the match up advantage. It's going to typically be their slot vs. one of your safeties. If they get time to cross the width of the field a window will almost always open unless you commit your user to under cutting it. You almost certainly had other responsibilities within the play call, so now someone else is open underneath.

If they have a slot apprentice they can also set up double deep crosses. This by itself can be guarded (you need to pick up the crosser going to the strong side, your weak side safety can get the other) but if they start using motion or are flipping their formation after the huddle breaks we'll probably need to play something else.

The worst is probably corner routes. The weird thing is it's not all corner routes. If I play Palms against a stock Bench Play from a balanced offensive set I'm probably ok. If I play Palms (or Quarters) against Double China or any Smash that uses a shallow in for the pull down route and I'm in big, big trouble.

Shallow-and-in can also be a problem even with the needed adjustments. For example, if they are killing me with a back side slant but I don't want to get out of this defense I'm going to bring the safety way down into the box and I'm going to press on the outside. Even if it all goes right you can still cough up the completion if your press gets beaten, the WR has great catching, etc.

Without the press you can easily lose quickly on any shallow in-cut. Try a play with two verts up the same seam and a shallow route from the outside receiver underneath them.

Even simple drags can start to test your patience and discipline because it's very, very hard to play them aggressively without opening up space behind you.

[tg88forHOF]

Quote: Originally Posted by edgevoice

Thanks Stink. I remember you doing a nice Cover 4 write up last year. I was playing basic cover 4 quarters, since the quarter flat defender would drive on slot outs, curls, etc while the deep quarter defender would only match if attacked vertically. However, this year I'm struggling with cover 4 quarters. Palms seems to be working better. I'll keep working at it.

I've also had better luck with Palms than Quarters, both last year and so far this year. I've no idea how much of that is user error (either in execution, or in just calling it against the wrong offense), and how much is the play. I suspect it's mostly the former, as from what I've seen, the AI plays both Q and P the way they should...subject to any of the AI's global limitations, of course.

As a suggestion, I've had much better luck (with both, but Palms especially) usering one of the quarter flat defenders...either whichever side is being manned by the DB in a Nickel set, or whichever side feels like the more relevant threat in Dime. I've found that, in case of a breakdown, the QF is in the best position to see it and react to close the hole.

I traditionally run with one of my better run-stopping backup safeties slotted in at one of the SUBLB positions....that helps enormously on Palms.

[tg88forHOF]

So far as covering trips and bunch from zone....

I've found that a hard flat call (either at playcalling or as an adjustment at the line) helps quite a bit. For most zones, that leaves either a curl zone or a quarter flat over the slot, and I user that defender.

With the corner on a hard flat, I KNOW I can ignore the shallow routes, and that I'll have to grab the curl and the corner between that flat corner and the deep guy....basically, it's taking one of the routes you know is probably coming and taking it off your plate.

In general, this is how I play zone on every play...look at which zone the outside guy is in, and user the defender who's in the best position to cover where I know he won't be. Hard flat? Ok, I've got the hook and corner. Tampa 2? Ok, I know the corner's soft squat is probably going to pull him up the sideline, so the curl defender will need to keep an eye on the flat.

[stinkubus]

I hate hook zones. They can almost never play the ball for you. They are parking cones who can obstruct a throwing lane for like 1-2 beats, at best, because sometimes the ball would need to go right through him otherwise.

I typically user the hook on all the plays I use that have it. I like to let the AI play quarter zones because I want to keep myself off of anyone the AI might match due to vertical release with the exception of the HB since he's *ALWAYS* ours from these Ds.

If you play humans staying on the slot guy means get ready to get run off by streaks. If you don't stay with them it's an easy pitch and catch. With elite TEs it's borderline criminal.

[edgevoice]

Quote: Originally Posted by stinkubus

I hate hook zones. They can almost never play the ball for you. They are parking cones who can obstruct a throwing lane for like 1-2 beats at best....

Now that was classic. Might want to consider tagging the above as your signature...

[DSonTL]

Quote: Originally Posted by stinkubus

I still like to use both. Quarters is the best solution to your Ohio problem. I would also press a decent % of the time. You can get away with a modest SPD disadvantage (-3 to -4 or so) with good enough PRS and coverage ratings. Being able to press out of these defenses now has really added a lot to them. Re-routing receivers at the line can disrupt some of the patterns that kill you, like comebacks from an isolated receiver. It just takes them too long to develop. You can also use inside/outside shade to jam them in the direction you want them to go. You can shade receivers individually, so you don't necessarily need to commit to being so aggressive with your entire D. You would also have the option of pressing but then backing off someone who's speed worries you, like a Tyreek, etc. Also since I use Cover 2 Press and Cover 1 Robber Press when my CBs come down immediately after the huddle breaks you can't know exactly what I'm running. Maybe I pressed my play call, maybe I checked to Cover 1 or Cover 2.

question about shading.. how does it work. I think I do it wrong.. if I click inside, will it reroute the WR INSIDE or is it reverse?

[BQfromNY]

Thanks for the tips