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Old 09-17-2019, 08:56 PM   #33
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

I'm liking 75 so far.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:32 AM   #34
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

So do we know if it's the same as last year where "75 was the new 50", or did they straighten that out and 50 is 50?

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Old 09-18-2019, 10:46 AM   #35
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

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Originally Posted by Grey_Osprey
So do we know if it's the same as last year where "75 was the new 50", or did they straighten that out and 50 is 50?

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Feels like they kept it the same after they changed it last year. So 75 is the old 50
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:17 PM   #36
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

I have no idea about ps4 madden, but this all started with Madden 10.

That was the year the dev team wrote blogs and showed animations demonstrating the differences between speed an acceleration in that game. It showed how Wes Welker, who had 88 speed and 99 acceleration would have a realistic burst off the line in a 100 yard dash but be caught and overcome by a 99 speed player with 88 acceleration.

They went in and looked at more than 40 times and tried to best rate both skills as best they could. While imperfect, they did a fine job.

Additionally, they wrote about the threshhold sliders and in a nut shell:

The closer you get to 0, the more the game plays like high school football and the closer to 100 playing more like NFL football. According to wikipedia, the average 40 time of an NFL HB is about two and a half tenths of a second faster than a linebacker (at 4.49 and 4.76 respectively) with execptions for highs and lows for both.

In real life, it is blocking, gap control, and scheme which gets a ball carrier around the edge more than speed. Yeah... they are fast... but so is almost everybody else in the NFL. Speed makes the biggest difference on straight line breakaway moments.

I began with 100 and cut it down to 75 where I continue to play Madden 25 at.

I do not know about Madden 20, but in 10, 11, 12, and 14 (25): the slowest HBs bottomed out at 88 speed and the fastest LBs were Patrick Willis and Yhomas Davis at about 90-92 speed. The rest topped out at 88 and were often 86 or even 82 speed.

The hand crafted rookies averaged 82-86 speed with rare exception, and even those exceptions where freaks with low positional skill ratings and were like 52 OVR.

A 92 speed HB should not be hitting the edge and burning a MLB with 86 speed. A football field is 53 and a half yards wide. From midfield, we are talking a distance of 25 yards or so depending where you start onthe hash marks. That is more or less half of the distance run in a 40. It should take elite speed, like 97-99 to just burn defenders around the edge.

====================

Look, I know it is not a fair comparison, but I coach and play with amateur adults. I am 35 and fat and slow. You would need a sun dial and a weekend vacation to time me running a 40. I am 6'1, 275lbs (lost weight since some of you met me 8+ years ago). On our team, we have retired and unsigned soccer players. Some guys who once competed in or to qualify for the World Cup. Guys who can fly and make our fastest amateurs look slow.

While I play offensive line, I coach both sides of the ball from week to week. We have had multiple times when I was teaching containment, flow, angles, etc. Even my slow old body was able to contain runs sideline to sideline with proper technique and leverage. Those runners had the agility to stop on a dime, cut inside my tackle attampts and make me look a fool, but I instructed them to take the handoff and hit the edge. They had to turn the corner and beat me around the edge, not cut inside me. The drill was to show our other players how containment and leverage work - track the near hip, keep ypur shpulders square but get a good hip twist to run with your target, be aware of your gap assignment and try to cut off your man and force him you your help. If I could contain these guys, then our younger and faster players have no excuse not to execute.

Well, the runners never beat me around the edge. I would force them out or tackle them at the line or for a loss each time. However, they couldn't help but cut back and inside my leverage. Even then, we added a MIKE/JACK LB to team with me so that we could teach gang tackling and team work. We both worked left and right and would consistantly trap and tackle the backs as a duo. The HB began with the ball 6 and a half to 7 yards back from the line, we were at about 4 to 5 yards of depth and alinged over where a guard would be in a traditional 3-4 MLB position with a slight outside leverage advantage which we were not to give up.

So, I am not sold on using lower speed thresholds.

I suggest 75+ especially if the new 75 is the old 50... I might suggest straight up 100 and reduce it if that is too extreme until it feels right.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:21 PM   #37
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum (above), thanks PGaither84.

I tried 50 this year after using 75 post patch last year after they spread it out a bit more. When my 96 speed 74 OVR rated HB would go outside, I could make a juke and then it was off to the races more so than not. I rushed for over 200 yards once and at least 150 yards the other games with him.

So I went back to 75 and played a couple of games, my speedy RB is injured but I have yet to hit 100 yards with my other RB's, which is a good sign this one slider adjustment seems to definitely tighten the game up vs the default of 50.
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:55 AM   #38
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

Fantastic post about the small speed gap in the NFL

Iíd also suggest watching these simulcam comparing different 40 times

You can really see that itís usually no more than a couple yards difference between 4.42 and a 4.57

https://youtu.be/NaaPMSmjlKY?t=1m56s
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:44 PM   #39
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

Madden players use lower spd threshold because they "want speed to matter"--that's the most common phrase I see written.

Speed absolutely still matters on high threshold. A lot. But other ratings, alignment, etc. will all come into play a lot more. You can especially see this in man coverage, it really tightens that up closer to NFL. What the low threshold guys in my harsh judgment really want is easier completions for more yardage. A fast guy should be an easy 20-50 yds.

To EA's credit, they tried to make 50 the realistic point in M19, but the feedback from the community at large was clear--they want a speed game where you're throwing to wide open guys, not a game of inches. Which is why they changed it back to how it was before and how it is in M20, where realistic is 75+.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:15 PM   #40
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Re: Realistic speed threshold

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGaither84
I have no idea about ps4 madden, but this all started with Madden 10.

That was the year the dev team wrote blogs and showed animations demonstrating the differences between speed an acceleration in that game. It showed how Wes Welker, who had 88 speed and 99 acceleration would have a realistic burst off the line in a 100 yard dash but be caught and overcome by a 99 speed player with 88 acceleration.

They went in and looked at more than 40 times and tried to best rate both skills as best they could. While imperfect, they did a fine job.

Additionally, they wrote about the threshhold sliders and in a nut shell:

The closer you get to 0, the more the game plays like high school football and the closer to 100 playing more like NFL football. According to wikipedia, the average 40 time of an NFL HB is about two and a half tenths of a second faster than a linebacker (at 4.49 and 4.76 respectively) with execptions for highs and lows for both.

In real life, it is blocking, gap control, and scheme which gets a ball carrier around the edge more than speed. Yeah... they are fast... but so is almost everybody else in the NFL. Speed makes the biggest difference on straight line breakaway moments.

I began with 100 and cut it down to 75 where I continue to play Madden 25 at.

I do not know about Madden 20, but in 10, 11, 12, and 14 (25): the slowest HBs bottomed out at 88 speed and the fastest LBs were Patrick Willis and Yhomas Davis at about 90-92 speed. The rest topped out at 88 and were often 86 or even 82 speed.

The hand crafted rookies averaged 82-86 speed with rare exception, and even those exceptions where freaks with low positional skill ratings and were like 52 OVR.

A 92 speed HB should not be hitting the edge and burning a MLB with 86 speed. A football field is 53 and a half yards wide. From midfield, we are talking a distance of 25 yards or so depending where you start onthe hash marks. That is more or less half of the distance run in a 40. It should take elite speed, like 97-99 to just burn defenders around the edge.

====================

Look, I know it is not a fair comparison, but I coach and play with amateur adults. I am 35 and fat and slow. You would need a sun dial and a weekend vacation to time me running a 40. I am 6'1, 275lbs (lost weight since some of you met me 8+ years ago). On our team, we have retired and unsigned soccer players. Some guys who once competed in or to qualify for the World Cup. Guys who can fly and make our fastest amateurs look slow.

While I play offensive line, I coach both sides of the ball from week to week. We have had multiple times when I was teaching containment, flow, angles, etc. Even my slow old body was able to contain runs sideline to sideline with proper technique and leverage. Those runners had the agility to stop on a dime, cut inside my tackle attampts and make me look a fool, but I instructed them to take the handoff and hit the edge. They had to turn the corner and beat me around the edge, not cut inside me. The drill was to show our other players how containment and leverage work - track the near hip, keep ypur shpulders square but get a good hip twist to run with your target, be aware of your gap assignment and try to cut off your man and force him you your help. If I could contain these guys, then our younger and faster players have no excuse not to execute.

Well, the runners never beat me around the edge. I would force them out or tackle them at the line or for a loss each time. However, they couldn't help but cut back and inside my leverage. Even then, we added a MIKE/JACK LB to team with me so that we could teach gang tackling and team work. We both worked left and right and would consistantly trap and tackle the backs as a duo. The HB began with the ball 6 and a half to 7 yards back from the line, we were at about 4 to 5 yards of depth and alinged over where a guard would be in a traditional 3-4 MLB position with a slight outside leverage advantage which we were not to give up.

So, I am not sold on using lower speed thresholds.

I suggest 75+ especially if the new 75 is the old 50... I might suggest straight up 100 and reduce it if that is too extreme until it feels right.
This was a fun read, but those elements of technique are completely abstracted away in game by things like STR, BSH, etc.

Also many of these issues are resolved by manually moving players pre snap. The default alignment is rarely the best one to get players to effectively play their fits.

For example, if the offense calls a dive and I'm in Cover 4 with the safeties in the box if I bring them in just a step too far they are going to run right past the HB. Keep them too far back and they may not fill fast enough to prevent my opponent from taking 3 yards and a cloud of dust. They may also not fill fast enough to prevent cutbacks if you do manage to stifle something at the point of attack.
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