Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

[speedkills]

I remember Rex Ryan before the season started when there was all this anticipation over the Arizona Cardinals' offense. I believe he called it a Mickey Mouse offense or something to that effect. Like father like son (Buddy Ryan derided the Run and Shoot as the "Chuck and Duck").

No one expected the air raid to put up even close to the numbers it does in college but is it even a viable offense in the NFL? Or will it go the way of Chip Kelly's hyper speed read option offense or the aforementioned bygone Run and Shoot?

I know pretty much every NFL team runs air raid concepts like mesh and 4 verticals, but I'm talking about as a dedicated offensive scheme.

I've watched a few of the Cardinals games on NFL replay this year and nothing made me say, "wow, this thing is going to take off."

Oh and as it relates to Madden, used the air raid offense for my 2020 Patriots franchise. I led the league in passing but it was so much dinky dunk stuff. 40+ attempts for 300 yards typically. And I came in 2nd to last in rushing. I've switched back to the multiple power rushing scheme and playbook of the current NE Patriots.

[underdog13]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

Dink and Dunk is boring in Madden. Lemme throw it deep and unleash the dragon.

[Radiant1]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

Arizona basically runs a hybrid offense, it’s not even a pure Air-raid at this point. They’re a young team with a rookie coach and QB. To write-off Klingsbury’s scheme this early isn’t being fair. Not many teams have had a juggernaut offense in year one of an install so I don’t see exactly what you’re trying to prove, bringing up their results this early?

And the run and shoot isn’t dead, by any means. You could argue that it’s the forefather of the modern day passing game. Motioning receivers, option routes, reading leverage rather than coverage, attacking the open grass, tunnel and bubble screens, etc. All this stuff was run 20+ years ago by Mouse Davis and June Jones. The protection scheme for the ‘shoot had to be overhauled (with more heavy shotgun/pistol formations) due to it being more susceptible to sacks from zone blitzing defenses because of the designed half rollout from under center by the QB in the OG version. New England basically uses run and shoot out of multiple personnel groupings and different terminology, so again, it’s far from being dead

[speedkills]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

Arizona basically runs a hybrid offense, it’s not even a pure Air-raid at this point.

That is my point. Can a "pure" air raid be a viable offense in the NFL? A pure run and shoot can't be, even though, again, their concepts are still in use to this day. But not exclusively.

The last success the Run and Shoot had in the NFL was under June Jones in Atlanta with Jeff George at QB. Even then, Jones had to incorporate the TE, but then it's no longer the shoot.

[Radiant1]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

That is my point. Can a "pure" air raid be a viable offense in the NFL? A pure run and shoot can't be, even though, again, their concepts are still in use to this day. But not exclusively.

The last success the Run and Shoot had in the NFL was under June Jones in Atlanta with Jeff George at QB. Even then, Jones had to incorporate the TE, but then it's no longer the shoot.

So how can Arizona be seen as an indictment against a “pure” air-raid offense, if they don’t run a pure raid, by your own admission?

Name me one current NFL scheme that is still 100% pure? WCO has stolen tons from air raid and spread, and looks nothing like the “pure” west coast ran by Bill Walsh in the 80’s and 90’s anymore. Erdhart-Perkins is really just a combination of west coast, run and shoot and power offense with simplified terminology.

My point is, the “demise” of certain offenses is very overstated, and the truth is everyone is running everyone else’s stuff constantly. There is no such thing as a “pure” offense anymore. To get hung up on something as trivial as how many receivers are on the field in order to qualify what’s considered “pure” raid or “pure” run and shoot is silly to me. Teams constantly steal from each other

[speedkills]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

So how can Arizona be seen as an indictment against a “pure” air-raid offense, if they don’t run a pure raid, by your own admission?

I wasn't aware that what Kingsbury is running in Arizona isn't what he was running at Texas Tech. I'll defer to your knowledge on this. But that he isn't running the Air Raid he ran at TT is an indictment against it's use in the NFL.

Name me one current NFL scheme that is still 100% pure? WCO has stolen tons from air raid and spread, and looks nothing like the “pure” west coast ran by Bill Walsh in the 80’s and 90’s anymore. Erdhart-Perkins is really just a combination of west coast, run and shoot and power offense with simplified terminology.

My point is, the “demise” of certain offenses is very overstated, and the truth is everyone is running everyone else’s stuff constantly. There is no such thing as a “pure” offense anymore. To get hung up on something as trivial as how many receivers are on the field in order to qualify what’s considered “pure” raid or “pure” run and shoot is silly to me. Teams constantly steal from each other

That is true, but there are still "pure" forms of the air raid and run and shoot being run at the college level (Leach at Wazzu and Rolovich at Hawaii). Would those offenses directly transferred to the NFL be successful? Leach, the offensive mastermind that he is, never has nor likely ever will coach in the NFL. Kingsbury as you said is running some hybrid version. And adding TE sets to the run and shoot does fundamentally change it to where you're running something like Buffalo's K-Gun in the early 90s.

[Radiant1]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

I wasn't aware that what Kingsbury is running in Arizona isn't what he was running at Texas Tech. I'll defer to your knowledge on this. But that he isn't running the Air Raid he ran at TT is an indictment against it's use in the NFL.



That is true, but there are still "pure" forms of the air raid and run and shoot being run at the college level (Leach at Wazzu and Rolovich at Hawaii). Would those offenses directly transferred to the NFL be successful? Leach, the offensive mastermind that he is, never has nor likely ever will coach in the NFL. Kingsbury as you said is running some hybrid version. And adding TE sets to the run and shoot does fundamentally change it to where you're running something like Buffalo's K-Gun in the early 90s.

I think the reason some coaches don’t get offered jobs at the pro level has more to do with their personalities than the actual scheme they are running. The “we’re going to run our scheme this way, all else be damned” rigid coaching types don’t last in the NFL because that’s just fundamentally a flawed way to approach anything. If you have an inability to reinvent yourself constantly and be fluid in your approach to attacking your opponents weaknesses, the league will catch up to you eventually as teams get more tape on you.

That’s why “mad scientist” Mike Martz is out of the league now. “System” coaches tend to have a god complex, making the team’s success more about them, feeling the need to prove that they can win regardless of personnel. I think Rolo could succeed in the NFL today because he’s run multiple schemes and has incorporated aspects of all of them into his current run and shoot scheme. Leach is a head case and has to prove his system is king, which is why no one wants him


PS

Kingsburry came out early with his typical air-raid college stuff, but reeled it in as soon as he realized he doesn’t have the personnel to run that as a full-time scheme right now. Since then he’s run much more 2 TE, under center, multiple attack scheme with core raid sprinkled in on passing downs and hurry up. I think he has potential based on the fact that he’s adjusting to his personnel early in his career. Guys like Martz, Leach and Kelly are too stubborn to adjust. The irony of Kelly is, the Eagles basically won the SB using his scheme under Pederson. Kelly’s actual scheme works, he just refused to dial back his tempo, which negatively impacted his defenses because of how quick they were back on the field. A better coach took the best aspects of a viable scheme and won with it

[JoshC1977]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

Kingsburry came out early with his typical air-raid college stuff, but reeled it in as soon as he realized he doesn’t have the personnel to run that as a full-time scheme right now.

I love Radiant's entire post but I wanted to focus on one element.

People want to rail on Madden's approach to franchise....

But man...Madden captures this really darn well. The scheme fit in Arizona (base rosters) is horrid. They need both pass protectors on the line and agile route runners at receiver. Heck, even Kyler isn't a great fit initially (though he can be developed and has that upside). Go on the field with that roster and you're going to be doing what Kingsbury did....adapt.

Some people seem to think of 'scheme fit' in Madden as a "maximize XP" function and nothing more. But really, it's a great visual tool to show how well the players you have mesh together. When you have a really well-optimized team, you can really see the strengths/weaknesses of that scheme stand-out.

Now, keeping it in "Madden jargon", if you have a ton of well-balanced players, you can achieve a high scheme fit for a variety of schemes. IMO, the Air Raid has several more specialized archetypes that are tougher to build into multi-archetype threats (pass protectors, receiving backs, and even slot receivers - though they are more common). So, you either have to a) get really lucky to get a plethora of high-end players that meet those scheme needs; b) hyper-specialize your players (making the scheme better at the cost of flexibility); or c) have a lower-OVR mix of guys who are passable at the scheme (but are a bit more flexible). It's not impossible to do this by any means, but like real life, I think it's going to be a multi-year process.

I'm now incredibly intrigued to try and build out this team.....

[UtahUtes32]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

.. The scheme fit in Arizona (base rosters) is horrid. .

Agree 100%!!!

HB should be receiving back, and it's not,among others.

To the other points, I've watched all but 1 of Arizona's games using NFL Game pass for the all-22. I'm shocked by their formation usage, they run a fair amount of 2 even THREE TE sets and not just in short yardage.

-I like the offense, their screen game is really well designed for both receivers and RB's.

-They have this brutal mid-screen game for the running back, and run designed swing routes to the RB where the receivers block but no OL pull out.

-I was shocked at how bad of a blocker Larry Fitzgerald is at 6'3 225. I ended up pulling his blocking grade on PFF and I think he's the 4th worst blocking WR in the NFL, Which is even worse when you combine that with that offense.

-There are a lot of quick passes and Kyler has a lightning quick release, even with off platform throws.

-They attack the flats a lot with flat routes from the slot, I'm surprised how open NFL defenses leave the flat.

-They also have a nice delayed draw, more delayed than other teams.

-Kenyan drake is so much better than David Johnson which I don't think anyone expected. Although, earlier in the season they put DJ in the slot and ran a few slot fades with him (big in the college game and this offense), he caught at least 1 TD in this concept.

-They also run a fair amount of QB runs for Kyler, both with speed option, read option and QB draw. Usually about 5-8 designed QB runs per game.

-Speaking of which, I'm surprised at their run-to-pass ratio, I don't have the numbers but I bet it's close to 55/45 pass to run.

[DSonTL]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

I think Kelly offense could’ve been something if he altered it to fit the NFL landscape. As far as like Spread Option to run schemes.. I really believe Gus Malzhan scheme can defly work in the NFL because it’s not a typical spread. It’s legit a power running scheme that can adapt to the QB.. with lead blockers and play action passing. I truly believe that can work due to the fact it’s built around the trenches. It’s Power running football


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[Radiant1]

Re: Is the Air Raid offense frankly, underwhelming in the NFL and Madden?

I think Kelly offense could’ve been something if he altered it to fit the NFL landscape. As far as like Spread Option to run schemes.. I really believe Gus Malzhan scheme can defly work in the NFL because it’s not a typical spread. It’s legit a power running scheme that can adapt to the QB.. with lead blockers and play action passing. I truly believe that can work due to the fact it’s built around the trenches. It’s Power running football


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

The Panthers (with Cam at Qb) have been running a lot of Malzhan’s power spread, veer option concepts for awhile now. I agree that it could work as a full-time scheme as well because of the ball-control, time of possession element it brings with it