Madden 20: Gutfoxx Explains Why the Run Game Dominated Competitive Scene

[canes21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cardot

After developing football games for 30 years, how do you botch the dive play?

The dive play has been busted since at least going back to 2013. Even in NCAA 14 does the OL get a huge amount of push on dive-like plays no matter what the ratings/matchups are. The running game has always been too easy in EA Sports games, but it seems like it's gotten even easier this year.

[Devaster]

Quote: Originally Posted by canes21

The dive play has been busted since at least going back to 2013. Even in NCAA 14 does the OL get a huge amount of push on dive-like plays no matter what the ratings/matchups are. The running game has always been too easy in EA Sports games, but it seems like it's gotten even easier this year.

I don't think a lot changed this year. I think the changes to prevent players from passing the ball too often resulted in many exploiting the already existing run-game issues.


I remember playing MUT online matches in M15 and just running dive/trap plays and getting at least 4-6 yards every run. March straight down the field. My opponent could never stop me as long as I had a decent OLine and RB. That seems to be what happened this year as the passing game became too risky.

[Cardot]

Quote: Originally Posted by canes21

The dive play has been busted since at least going back to 2013. Even in NCAA 14 does the OL get a huge amount of push on dive-like plays no matter what the ratings/matchups are. The running game has always been too easy in EA Sports games, but it seems like it's gotten even easier this year.

Agreed. I still play NCAA '14, and it is hard to get exciting about those plunges from the goal line. The lack of fumbles doesn't help either. (Sorry for the sidetrack). But frustrating EA can't get the most basic of basic plays right.

[Shogunreaper]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cory Levy

The example of how the Offensive Line dominates the Defensive Line up the middle is why Madden should not call itself a football simulator anymore. Changing the fundamentals of the game of football so that video game players don't get upset because they have to actually adapt and learn the game itself is a joke. Who cares if players complain about getting sacked because they want to run backwards 20 yards and heave the ball downfield, make them learn to play correctly, don't make the game easier for the worst players.

Na the developers had the perfect idea when they created the 3 different styles (sim/arcade/competitive)

now if only they would make them actually change the gameplay for them...

[stinkubus]

I started getting bored with MUT and joined a 32 man to mix things up. There's definitely something wonky about Dive defense in Sim mode. It's honestly worse than MUT Stretch or Wildcat spam. Interior DL practically never shed blocks unless you've got a Kenny Clark, Snacks, etc.

I've got Da'Ron Payne playing nose and rush DT for me and he can't do anything at all. 95 STR, better than 80 BSH and PMV and I don't think he's got a mark on the stat sheet through 3 whole games with 8 min quarters.

My single player franchises are always played on competitive and I do not experience this same issue. In fact I frequently pick up Payne in my fantasy drafts because he's young and available much later than other DTs of his caliber. He's an absolute goon in those games.

[4thQtrStre5S]

The game mechanics have been overly manipulated to create desired results, whether to mimic NFL statistics which have been demanded by consumers, or to quick patch exploits, such as the nano blitz, stunts, etc.



The game engine and coding needs a new start.



Another concern that has crossed my mind is the requirements needed to complete MUT Solo Battles. The objectives in these solo battles, such as rushing for 75 yards in 5 carries or completing 10 passes without an incompletion or getting a pick 6 in 4 plays or less, etc. cannot be accomplished in a satisfactory manner to the user if the game operated with proper physics and American Football mechanics.



What are the odds in the NFL of a RB gaining 75 yards in 5 carries, when they have to run, without passing, and of course the defense knows these rules? Won't happen.


It would seem exploits and fiction must be implemented in Madden just to make MUT Solo Battles work. I think we can forget about a simulation football game.

[stinkubus]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S

The game mechanics have been overly manipulated to create desired results, whether to mimic NFL statistics which have been demanded by consumers, or to quick patch exploits, such as the nano blitz, stunts, etc. The game engine and coding needs a new start. Another concern that has crossed my mind is the requirements needed to complete MUT Solo Battles. The objectives in these solo battles, such as rushing for 75 yards in 5 carries or completing 10 passes without an incompletion or getting a pick 6 in 4 plays or less, etc. cannot be accomplished in a satisfactory manner to the user if the game operated with proper physics and American Football mechanics. What are the odds in the NFL of a RB gaining 75 yards in 5 carries, when they have to run, without passing, and of course the defense knows these rules? Won't happen. It would seem exploits and fiction must be implemented in Madden just to make MUT Solo Battles work. I think we can forget about a simulation football game.

Beating these requirements is almost always done using plays/tactics that are easily bagged by skilled humans. They also require very specific tactics, so they really have little to no impact on "normal" play because the circumstances just won't be re-created.

As an example. For most of the game you can get the AI to toss you an easy pick by coming out in FG Block, calling an audible to Punt Safe which induces them to audible to 4 Verts for most of the game, and you can then easily bait a throw to one of the outside routes and you don't need the lurker ability to do it.

This is *the* go to move to maximize your Battle Score in Solo Battles. The only reason to do this is if you want to try for top 100. You can not rack up enough offense otherwise because the games are so short. One can also instantly end any solo challenge of the "don't allow any yards/points"" variety.

How does this tactic effect the broader game?

[4thQtrStre5S]

Quote: Originally Posted by stinkubus

Beating these requirements is almost always done using plays/tactics that are easily bagged by skilled humans. They also require very specific tactics, so they really have little to no impact on "normal" play because the circumstances just won't be re-created. As an example. For most of the game you can get the AI to toss you an easy pick by coming out in FG Block, calling an audible to Punt Safe which induces them to audible to 4 Verts for most of the game, and you can then easily bait a throw to one of the outside routes and you don't need the lurker ability to do it. This is *the* go to move to maximize your Battle Score in Solo Battles. The only reason to do this is if you want to try for top 100. You can not rack up enough offense otherwise because the games are so short. One can also instantly end any solo challenge of the "don't allow any yards/points"" variety. How does this tactic effect the broader game?

It shows the true nature of Madden to be an arcade game. The AI breaking methods to maximize battle scores is the method to get top 100, agree.



Running the same stretch or dive and waiting for the defense AI to pick the wrong play is another method. Though why the AI would pick the wrong play when it knows the offense has to run, is confusing. Reminds of the criticism Barry Switzer and the Cowboys received for calling the same run play against the Eagles on 4th down.



A third method, such as in the case of the rushing for 75 yards needs no more than the fastest or near fastest HB, which was Tony Pollard for about the first 4 months in M20. The Offensive line could all be silver or lesser cards as the defensive line is rendered nearly useless by issues with coding or animation, or whatever the explanation was a few years back.



The defense does not spill, force or apply fits properly. There seems to be little effect by physics.



I feel these issues matter because when playing the CPU in Play Now, for example, when avoiding AI busting plays such as running Salem concept over and over again, which the CPU can't seem to adjust to defend, the CPU can stop you with their defense or score on offense when needed.



Their 2 minute offense is Patriots-like regardless of team; if a user is calling base plays and covering their key assignment in zone or man.



Playing a clean game against the CPU can easily result in nail biting games with the CPU matching your the user play call with the proper offense or defense to make the stop or gain proper yardage to set up a 3rd and short.



These game play mechanics, whether DDS or whatever it is being called, manipulation, indicates to me that their is probably too much going on in the game code to allow for proper cleaning up and fixing of errors and bugs in that same coding.



This leads me to believe that issues with correcting OL/DL interactions and cleaning up physics and pursuit angles and so on are never going to happen, even with next generation processing power.

The game needs a new engine and consistent game play coding that represents the physics of humans playing the game of american football.


*By too much going on, I am referring to: Play Now, Franchise, MUT all play differently. Rookie, Pro, All-Pro and All-Madden all play differently. Arcade, Simulation and Competitive all play differently. And if I remember correctly, there is also a game start up option for Beginner, intermediate and expert skill level. This lends it self to how many different variations on how the game mechanics are processed and played out? Seems like a recipe for disaster.



*Note: I am not a programmer so maybe it is easier to create such variation in coding than it appears, and multiple levels and skill and game play mechanics can be easily programmed. If so, I would love to learn how so I will gain new knowledge.