Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

[RogueHominid]

I'm noticing in my offline franchise (All Madden) that the CPU gets gashed by me when I run the read option. I average 9 YPC on that play in my current CFM, and I also get pretty big yards on the rare occasion when I scramble outright.

My gut is telling me that the CPU lacks the wherewithal to call the option defense adjustment or that the QB pursuit AI for LB and DB is just not there, but I wonder if others see the same thing, or if I'm just getting lucky, as it were.

I might run the play 3-5x per game with Fields, so it's not my whole offense by any stretch, but the yards I get there do inflate my offensive production substantially.

I'm considering just not running the play, but again wanted to see if my experience was the exception or the rule.

[Dsabol715]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I get blown up every time I call it. On top of anytime a defender breathes on the qb, it's a fumble.

[eric7064]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I can get a few off here or there, but the CPU has done a decent job of stopping me (Bears) especially if I break off a couple. it seems they almost spy me the rest of the game where option literally does NOT work.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

Sounds like I’m just getting lucky—I’ll take it!

[tg88forHOF]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I'm seeing SOME of what you're seeing...that is, when the end crashes and the QB keeps, it's going to be a big gain. Nobody else on the defense is likely to make that stop before I've gotten at least 10-15 yards

But that actually only happens about twice a game. The rest of the time, the end checks up, so I have to give to the RB...and the results of those gives aren't any better than any other inside zone. And if I screw up the read and keep when I should have handed off, I get destroyed (as I should). If I give when I should have kept, it's usually not quite as productive as a normal inside zone.

I have seen a reasonable mix of the end crashing and the end checking up...the CPU doesn't seem to get stuck in only doing one or the other.

[Hooe]

Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

No, the CPU is not capable of using the Scrape techniques many teams use to take away both the quarterback and the tailback in shotgun zone read. It doesn’t do this because the concept of scraping is not in the game. So the CPU is thus limited to deciding whether backside player will crash or stay at home, and any other players will just run their assignments based on the play call. What you often end up with is any quarterback with halfway decent speed getting free for 10 or 15 yards whenever the backside DE crashes because the CPU doesn’t have anyone else to fill the spot that DE vacated.

Sometimes the CPU will stumble into calling Mike Scrape 3 - the closest Madden can get to running Scrape in a stock defense - but that is dictated by the playcalling logic which is tied to GameFlow and is independent from plays you have succeeded with.

If Tiburon were to add a Scrape concept to zone read option defense at some point, that would slow down zone read significantly, and it would also make the RPO Peek concept found in many shotgun formations much easier to use effectively and much more reliable.

Until Tiburon adds the scrape defensive concept, zone read is going to be a crutch play for most rushing offenses. Watching one of my buddies move the ball up and down the field on All Madden running zone read with Sam Ehlinger since September has been eye-opening, to say the least.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

Yeah, CM, that's how it's looking to me, too. I think I could easily rack up 1K rushing with a QB with over 80 SPD without trying all that hard.

I'm gonna run that play sparingly till they add more adaptive AI, as it seems like the one thing I can do that they don't know how to handle.

[chris5ft2]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I'm interested to know if anyone else feels like the controls for zone reads are backwards?

Usually teams tell their QBs the objective of the play is always to hand it off, unless it's obvious that they can pull the ball and get good yardage, if there's any uncertainty always give it rather than pull it. In Madden though the default is for the QB to pull it, so if there's a give read you have to consciously hit the button to make sure it goes to the running back.

Maybe it's just me and I'm just bad at making the correct read a lot of the time, but I've always felt liking handing to the back should be the default and you hit the button on the rare occasion you want the QB to keep it.

[tg88forHOF]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I'm interested to know if anyone else feels like the controls for zone reads are backwards?

Usually teams tell their QBs the objective of the play is always to hand it off, unless it's obvious that they can pull the ball and get good yardage, if there's any uncertainty always give it rather than pull it. In Madden though the default is for the QB to pull it, so if there's a give read you have to consciously hit the button to make sure it goes to the running back.

Maybe it's just me and I'm just bad at making the correct read a lot of the time, but I've always felt liking handing to the back should be the default and you hit the button on the rare occasion you want the QB to keep it.

I can kinda see this. It was awkward for me learning them at first too...it's been enough years that it's muscle memory now, but I remember it feeling a little unnatural.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

Posted this in the patch thread, but they are playing read option and scrambles a LOT better now. SO happy to see that--feels much more balanced.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

I'm seeing SOME of what you're seeing...that is, when the end crashes and the QB keeps, it's going to be a big gain. Nobody else on the defense is likely to make that stop before I've gotten at least 10-15 yards

But that actually only happens about twice a game. The rest of the time, the end checks up, so I have to give to the RB...and the results of those gives aren't any better than any other inside zone. And if I screw up the read and keep when I should have handed off, I get destroyed (as I should). If I give when I should have kept, it's usually not quite as productive as a normal inside zone.

I have seen a reasonable mix of the end crashing and the end checking up...the CPU doesn't seem to get stuck in only doing one or the other.

This has been my experience too. When handing it off I'm not feeling the numbers advantage is all that consequential. The delay involved in the handoff seems to let the defense shed blocks and get my halfback. Admittedly I main the Bills and we don't have top shelf backs.

[tg88forHOF]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

This has been my experience too. When handing it off I'm not feeling the numbers advantage is all that consequential. The delay involved in the handoff seems to let the defense shed blocks and get my halfback. Admittedly I main the Bills and we don't have top shelf backs.

Same...I'm pretty sure it's a human reaction thing. When we're making the read and camping the button at the mesh point, I think most of us aren't reading blocks as quickly or getting on the stick as fast.

I've noticed that when the defense is in an alignment that tells me "hand off no matter what" pre-snap (like they've got a hang defender stacked right on top of the end), I'm paying more/quicker attention to the back, and the gain is better.

I'm sure at least some of that is due to that hang defender making the numbers advantage on the give even more pronounced, but I'm pretty sure most of it is simply my human inability to truly focus on several things at once....if I'm camping the give button and looking at the end, I'm going to just plain be slower with the back.

Overall, I'm not bothered by that....there needs to be some balance there, and if it happens mechanically/via human interface, that's cool. I just picture it as the QB processing the read slowly.

[Hooe]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

Same...I'm pretty sure it's a human reaction thing. When we're making the read and camping the button at the mesh point, I think most of us aren't reading blocks as quickly or getting on the stick as fast.

I've noticed that when the defense is in an alignment that tells me "hand off no matter what" pre-snap (like they've got a hang defender stacked right on top of the end), I'm paying more/quicker attention to the back, and the gain is better.

I'm sure at least some of that is due to that hang defender making the numbers advantage on the give even more pronounced, but I'm pretty sure most of it is simply my human inability to truly focus on several things at once....if I'm camping the give button and looking at the end, I'm going to just plain be slower with the back.

Overall, I'm not bothered by that....there needs to be some balance there, and if it happens mechanically/via human interface, that's cool. I just picture it as the QB processing the read slowly.

Forgive my ignorance - what does “hang defender” refer to? My intuition says it’s an outside linebacker, a nickel back, or a walked-down safety in a 3-Sky look, but I’m not sure if it’s also referring to a particular alignment.

[tg88forHOF]

Re: Can the CPU Defend the Read Option

Forgive my ignorance - what does “hang defender” refer to? My intuition says it’s an outside linebacker, a nickel back, or a walked-down safety in a 3-Sky look, but I’m not sure if it’s also referring to a particular alignment.

That's exactly what I'm referring to....specifically, those situations where that outside linebacker, nickel back, or walked-down safety happens to be stacked right behind or very near the end on the LOS. Even if the end crashes, that hang defender is perfectly positioned to destroy the QB on a keep anyway. So when I see that pre-snap, I make the decision to give without even bothering to read the end.