FBG Rosters

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by xian11

Let's be very clear, I know Arian Foster isn't a fast RB. He also has long-strides which makes him appear slower than he actually his (this is usually what people mean by deceptively fast). You look to see if a RB can cut the corner because that is almost pure speed, which we've all seen Arian Foster can do. You think Thomas is 4.5? Firstly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zuUIhv8z3M I'm not saying he's faster than Ike Taylor, but that's not 4.5 speed. Here it is reported that he ran a 4.38 (http://www.times-herald.com/sports/c...s-in-NFL-draft). Scouting reports regarding his leaping ability: http://www.newerascouting.com/2010/0...outing-report/ http://www.nfldraftgeek.com/demaryius.html But watching tape on him doesn't seem to bear out the idea he has "elite" leaping ability, so I take that back. If video evidence isn't enough for Danario Alexander, the fact that this guy was a high school star in Long Jump, Triple Jump and every scouting report on the guy describes him as possessing an "elite" vertical, including CBS SPORTS (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/p...orical/1123307), who I assume you trust, should be sufficient. And I looked up Danario Alexander and Demariyus Thomas for the very reason that they didn't have combines or pro days due to injury. I think your methodology of rating players is great, but I think you need a system in place to deal with underperformers at combine/pro day, or if a player didn't have one to begin with.

What I see in that video with Thomas running away from Taylor is a WR who initially has about 2 yards of separation. When Thomas is crossing the 35 yard line Taylor is about 2 yards back of him. That gap is closed by the time Thomas reaches the 45 yard line. It closed so much in fact that Taylor is in position to make the tackle, but is stymied by a great stiff arm by Thomas in the open field. By that point, Taylor's momentum has been broken and he is out of the play. Taylor is a 4.35 guy and it shows by closing that gap within 10 yards of the field (or slightly longer by Thomas running across the field. Feel free to calculate the hypotenuse if you like.).

According to kinematics, the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.35 is only about 4 feet over the course of 40 yards. That is NOT a large margin of error. Madden needs to better represent this in-game. Enough of speed thresholds. Get real data with real kinematics.

The report from the Times-Herald of a 4.38 is flawed for several reasons. First of all, I doubt is was officially timed at either Arizona while training or at GT. Anyone who has played or coached at the college level knows that the times given to you by your strength coach are never official. Even Marshawn Lynch claimed to be able to run a 4.36 while training before the draft. NFLDS only posts the best verifiable time. As a massive scouting agency with near unlimited resources they can afford to dismiss conjecture and hear-say.

I also do not see anything in those scouting reports with a quantifiable data source for a vertical or broad jump. They say he has "great" leaping ability and can out jump a DB, who is most likely between 3 and 6 inches shorter in height. Do not confuse leaping ability by adding height. Jermichael Finley is a great example of that. People think he is a great leaper from all those great endzone fades he ran on smaller DBs. However, when you are a 6-5 TE you are already a half-foot taller and likely have a greater reach if everything is proportional to your height. That can make one APPEAR to be better at jumping when in fact he may only need to be 24 inches off of the ground to counter a CB with a 34 inch vertical leap.

As you can see, the sources all differ. Here is what NFLDS published before the draft on Thomas in 2010:

Release: Adequate lateral quickness and good upper-body strength to defeat press coverage. Long-strider with good build-up speed to eat up the cushion. Doesn't possess a clear second gear to accelerate and separate.

Hands: Strong, generally secure hands. Too often allows the ball into his pads on shallow routes, though he does a good job of securing. Good jump-ball candidate due to his height and leaping ability. Times his jumps well and high-points the ball, showing good hand-eye coordination to make the reception while competing for position. Good to very good body control to contort in space for a receiver of his size. Will leap, catch the ball and continue twisting so that when he hits the ground he's in position to keep running downfield instead of back toward the quarterback. Like a lot of bigger receivers, only has marginal overall flexibility to reach the low pass despite his long arms.

Route running: A significant area of concern. Not asked to run many pro-style routes in this offense. Most often used on simple go, drag or quick screens designed to get him one-on-one against smaller corners. May not have the suddenness in changing directions to generate separation against NFL defensive backs. Has to do a better job of coming off the line hard to sell his route when his team runs the ball. Can tip off his opponents by his effort to get downfield off the snap.

After the catch: One of his better areas. While far from nifty in the open field, shows some vision to set up his blocks and cut back against the grain, a strong stiff-arm and legitimate speed when he's in stride. Good balance and body control to sneak down the sideline for a receiver of his size. Tough for any cornerback to bring down one-on-one.

Blocking: Not the physical dominator one might think considering his size. Certainly has the strength to control his defender, but is far too inconsistent in this area; mostly due to inconsistent effort.

Intangibles: Nicknamed "Bay-Bay," which is why the back of his uniform reads "B. Thomas." Mother and grandmother went to jail for cocaine trafficking, eventually lived with his uncle, a preacher, who put him on a good life path

At no point in this report is it mentioned that Thomas has elite or even great speed or leaping ability. When I read this report, it seems all too apparent to me that what you see in the video of the Tebow pass is more representative of this report.

As for Alexander, we do provide all the scouting data to CBS, so of course I trust it. The only mention of his leaping ability is that it is "exceptional". It is not quantified as well. That could mean anything from a notch above average to elite. It also states that he was a district champion...not a state champ or anything like that in those two events in track and field. I believe we rated Danario with a JMP of 73 presently, which is still above average. Until we get more data to show something other than data that is not quantifiable, I cannot justify raising his JMP ability with a majority of confidence. That is the one drawback to the system...if we don't have data, we have to enter into projection which can vary widely depending on the sources you use.

[xian11]

Yeah, I get it. Some people are tall and have length, which compensates for leaping ability.

Danario Alexander is blessed with all the above, which is why he is such a great red zone threat when healthy.

At this point, you're simply comparing your scouting reports with mine.

You say that little can be inferred fromadjectives in the CBS Sports report, but the bold parts of the scouting report you endorse are somehow indicative of anything to the contrary.

"Doesn't possess a clear second gear to accelerate and separate." Separate from whom? Brandon Browner or Stanford Routt? It's always going to be vague when there's no numbers.

I'm saying that when no quantity exists, that should not necessarily be the end of the road.

Players with long strides usually have less acceleration ("burst") than players with shorter strides. That's about all you can see from that youtube clip; Ike Taylor is more explosive than Demaryius Thomas -- no arguments here.

Concerning that "flawed" 4.38 figure: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...mas/index.html

Does video evidence mean anything?

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by xian11

Yeah, I get it. Some people are tall and have length, which compensates for leaping ability. Danario Alexander is blessed with all the above, which is why he is such a great red zone threat when healthy. At this point, you're simply comparing your scouting reports with mine. You say that little can be inferred fromadjectives in the CBS Sports report, but the bold parts of the scouting report you endorse are somehow indicative of anything to the contrary. "Doesn't possess a clear second gear to accelerate and separate." Separate from whom? Brandon Browner or Stanford Routt? It's always going to be vague when there's no numbers. I'm saying that when no quantity exists, that should not necessarily be the end of the road. Players with long strides usually have less acceleration ("burst") than players with shorter strides. That's about all you can see from that youtube clip; Ike Taylor is more explosive than Demaryius Thomas -- no arguments here. Concerning that "flawed" 4.38 figure: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...mas/index.html Does video evidence mean anything?

You have to take anything sent from an agent/player during training with a HUGE grain of salt man. Unless they run it at a BLESCO or team-organized event where our scouts are present, we don't publish the time. That article states that the times were taken during his training, most likely not electronically, and even more likely by only one person with a stop watch one time. At the combine and pro days, for example, you have SEVERAL scouts taking times. Some take averages, some drop the fastest and slowest and average the rest. Each time a player runs they actually get 3 times (so a maximum of 6). NFLDS posts the best verifiable time. In fact, did you know that the timer can actually BREAK during the run, in which the electronic start is re-adjusted and the final time compensated for?

It's quite obvious we can have preferences on sources. The sources I choose are chosen because they are a service, independent of the media. Sure we have guys who write articles to publish (Chad Reuter and Rob Rang), but we do not publish for the sake of publishing. Our contracts with CBS Sports and Lindy's are examples of them asking permission to use our data and do whatever they wish with it. We only use primary source material as well...no secondhand stuff published under our copyrights.

Due to the preference of the source material and the methodology, I cannot argue any further in regards to these two players. I outlined the process and the problems we face when data is lacking. The cool thing about Madden is that you can now edit a player any way you want. If you are not satisfied with the ratings we produce for the game, you can change them. I am quite cool with that.

Now let's try to get back on topic here...if you have any further questions about the ratings process and not about the rosters, I will refer you to the FBG Ratings thread or my PM inbox.

[TDavis45]

Dan, thanks for all of these ratings and the amount of work you put into all of it. Keep up the good work.

[SECElit3]

Starting in on my 5th team complete using your ratings DCEbb. I couldn't have asked for better results. As I enter them, I analyze them. So far, they have made complete sense, and the game play has turned out outstanding.

Since I am making all of my edits in-game, I am only able to edit the rating that directly apply. This does make for some variation between our OVR ratings, but it is coming pretty close.

Thanks again for your work, as your web-site is now my favorite site.

[mooch49]

Have a couple of questions. What sliders to use with these specific edits and can you edit within franchise using the madden roster reader editor without lineman having skinny arms and any other anomalies that occur from editing. I only ask this because instead of doing all 32 teams, I want to just edit my team and its next opponent. Thanks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[atlplayboy23]

I want to enter some of these ratings are these the final 2013 season ratings. I see the last update was 12-13

[SECElit3]

DCEBB, I can't thank you enough for your website and ratings. I am currently working on my eighth team, entering your ratings, and I have to say the game play is unlike anything I've ever seen in a football game. These ratings literally bring the players to life. I can literally feel the difference in the players, as each one seems to have his own identity, and plays so much like his real-life counterpart, it is scary to watch sometimes.

DCEBB, you probably are working your own project, but I look forward to the day mine is finished, because this game play, again, will be unlike anything OS has seen before.

Outstanding work! Please let me know if I can be of any help in any way.