For all of us who were looking for more drops... not so fast my friend

[slthree]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

Who's at 12 the Human player on Pro Level?

Human at 10/CPU at 12

[Playmakers]

Quote: Originally Posted by slthree

I'm skeptical too but these are reliable sources. I actually think I owe EA an apology because I always thought they had drop calculations wrong. When a ball is jarred from a receiver EA does not call it a drop. I used to think it was. When I played, we called it a drop. But it looks like they had it right after all.

I think EA does a good job with how they assess a dropped pass. If a guy is getting smoked and he never really had possession of the ball before the hit then I agree it's not a dropped pass. There is no stat for it but it should be considered just a Pass Defense by the player who broke up the play. Not a deflection but a defensed pass.

The WR never had possession and the DB or LB never touched the football they just delivered the hit at the same time the ball arrived. So, no stat gets recorded.

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

I think EA does a good job with how they assess a dropped pass. If a guy is getting smoked and he never really had possession of the ball before the hit then I agree it's not a dropped pass. There is no stat for it but it should be considered just a Pass Defense by the player who broke up the play. Not a deflection but a defensed pass. The WR never had possession and the DB or LB never touched the football they just delivered the hit at the same time the ball arrived. So, no stat gets recorded.

In a way this makes the most logical sense if you've observed the recievers in the NFL the pressure to make the play is usually put on actual condition of that WR to come up with the catch...be it behind him,outside,downlow or whatever in this game the WR is somehow expected to make that catch.

And looking at these QBs it can't be easy for them with the less acurate QBs attempting these throws so IMO that WR setting is a blessing and cranking up the QB accuracy can be a frustrating experience to say the least...about the most effective way to insure the QBs stats and WR stats come out right IMO is to bring up th WR catch because the focus is simply..."Make the Catch"...its even part of this games feature in pratice when placing passes...high,low,in or out the WR simply has to come up with the "Catch" and theres probably a certain amount degree animation boost involved to insure this as in better WR animations mimic NFL catchs with flair and style!!!




Holla Back y'all
Rickster101

[mudtiger]

Personally, I think the stat to look at here is catch % from this guy's article...

Quote:

On the other hand, if you look at the top and bottom five lists, the players who drop the ball least often average a 63.2% catch percentage, as opposed to 53.7% for the frequent droppers. That’s a pretty significant difference.

Because in madden the qb is still on target 99% of the time if you have the cone on the guy, you have to get off target bad passes (which lower receivers catch percentage) form somewhere else. You need to have the catch percentage artificially lowered with outright drops, otherwise the passing game is too easy once you are efficient with the cone.

I wonder how knockdowns versus drops figure into STAT's stats. Is a guy getting hit as he makes the catch a knockdown/pass defended or drop according to STATS? How is it recorded in madden?

Or is it only a drop if it hits a guy in the hands with no pressure on him? If that is the case, then the effort to create a few more drops in madden is justified IMHO. Tweaking the WRC, you can produce a few more drops when getting hit appear while still holding the outright no pressure/no hit while making the catch drops hold steady at next to nothing. This should lower the catch % to a more realistic level (and maybe simulate bad passes) while keeping the drop % low...that is if drops are only recorded as passes hitting someone in the hands and being dropped with little to no pressure.

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by mudtiger

Personally, I think the stat to look at here is catch % from this guy's article... Because in madden the qb is still on target 99% of the time if you have the cone on the guy, you have to get off target bad passes (which lower receivers catch percentage) form somewhere else. You need to have the catch percentage artificially lowered with outright drops, otherwise the passing game is too easy once you are efficient with the cone. I wonder how knockdowns versus drops figure into STAT's stats. Is a guy getting hit as he makes the catch a knockdown/pass defended or drop according to STATS? How is it recorded in madden? Or is it only a drop if it hits a guy in the hands with no pressure on him? If that is the case, then the effort to create a few more drops in madden is justified IMHO. Tweaking the WRC, you can produce a few more drops when getting hit appear while still holding the outright no pressure/no hit while making the catch drops hold steady at next to nothing. This should lower the catch % to a more realistic level (and maybe simulate bad passes) while keeping the drop % low...that is if drops are only recorded as passes hitting someone in the hands and being dropped with little to no pressure.

I don't believe in that 99% stat it makes no sense at all even in Madden a poor throw is a poor throw even if its completed and ends up in the recievers hands the focus is still to complete the pass regardless and if an infraction occurs then it should be leved with a penalty and not blamed on the slider effect...Knockdown sliders are getting a bum rap IMO they're doing what they're suppose to and that is simply defending the pass not looking for some kinda head shot or something simply defend the pass and if you're being overly aggressive about it then that DB is outta line and should be penalized for such infractions...if you're throwing in double or triple coverage or any coverage thats going to be a problem simple "DON'T" do it check down and look for other options and play as a real NFL QB would tuck it and run throw it away or anything to avoid a pick that knockdown gets too much blame for what is simply "Poor" quaterbacking and decision making.

Some passes should be over thrown or thrown off target IMO and cranking a QBs accuracy up too much is like forcing your throws which result in less then favorable results Knockdows alone do not constitute poor QB play and forcing a throw will only lead to more and bigger issues. Just my two cents worth that makes sense...stop forcing throws and look for other options as in your check down recivers and progressions...and be decisive about you don't have much time back there so be smart and pull the trigger already!!!

The only thing I see when knockdowns are too high are the incredible leaps the DBs make in that knockdown animation some are just outrageous in the heights they accend to,I look for realistic gameplay and leaping 10-12 feet vertically is something thats just too much especially if you're a 5'10" DB with no real vertical leap to justify such a feat.

I know you' seen it and have said ....how in the hell did he do that? Simple he really wasn't suppose to the slider crank him up and turned him into a 6'0 DB with incredible leaping skills definatly not realistic IMO!!!

Also too much is focused on the "STAT" well we can get close but you don't need to depend on some stats to see the obvious and DBs leaping 10-15 feet vertically in the air should be obvious to any fan of the sport.

There are just too many intangebles to concider and blaming one slider isn't fair because of a QBs lack of skill and talent...if he sucks then thats on him not the slider,again just my two cents worth!!!



Holla Back y'all
Rickster101

[mudtiger]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickster101

I don't believe in that 99% stat it makes no sense at all even in Madden a poor throw is a poor throw even if its completed and ends up in the recievers hands the focus is still to complete the pass regardless and if an infraction occurs then it should be leved with a penalty and not blamed on the slider effect...

That's just it though, madden qbs don't make bad throws. Granted with the addition of the passing cone, if you don't have your receiver highlighted you'll see a bad throw. Otherwise though, once you are efficient with the cone it seems like any qb will be on target with every pass. When I say bad throws, I'm not talking about a pass that lands 10 yards short, but the little things that make a bad pass uncatchable even when a guy gets his hand or hands on it. Like being thrown behind a guy streaking across the middle of the field or being thrown just a tad too low or high, you don't see those things in madden, or at least I haven't. I may very well be way off on this as I have played the majority of my games with SD. Brees is not the best, but no slouch. I don't see bad passes out of him in madden. I should see them. In the end, it may be that individual teams need to be tweaked slightly to get them to play closer to the real thing.

So I put forth the easiest way to simulate those things is to lower WRC a tiny amount (at least for me playing with SD). Hopefully it can separate the good receivers from the bad too. Messing with QBA doesn't help because if you lower it below 10, deep passing ability suffers.

Quote:

Knockdown sliders are getting a bum rap IMO they're doing what they're suppose to and that is simply defending the pass not looking for some kinda head shot or something simply defend the pass and if you're being overly aggressive about it then that DB is outta line and should be penalized for such infractions...

I have no problem with the knockdown slider and agree with you. It does what it is supposed to do.

Quote:

Some passes should be over thrown or thrown off target IMO and cranking a QBs accuracy up too much is like forcing your throws which result in less then favorable results Knockdows alone do not constitute poor QB play and forcing a throw will only lead to more and bigger issues.

Again, I agree with you. My issue is that in madden you don't see those over thrown or off target passes unless you screw up the cone. I would think it comes down to EA saying if you have the cone on a guy, the player will think something is wrong if the qb throws an off target pass. People would complain about that, but yet it happens in the real nfl. Passes are not always perfect.

If the STATS stat is right and I am reading it correctly, even the best receivers only catch 60 some percent of the balls thrown at them. That's not to say they drop near 40%, but passes are off target, they get knocked down, and some are dropped. I would guess in madden, the best receivers catch a lot more than 60 some percent of the balls thrown at them because bad throws aren't a big part of the madden equation.

I agree 100% with Playmakers in this area, better WRs stand out here and make the catch on bad passes. They make average qbs look better than they are. In madden, the poor catching WRs catch as well as the sure hands guys. What's the point of getting TO on your team when Eric Parker gets the job done just as well?

Quote:

The only thing I see when knockdowns are too high are the incredible leaps the DBs make in that knockdown animation some are just outrageous in the heights they accend to,I look for realistic gameplay and leaping 10-12 feet vertically is something thats just too much especially if you're a 5'10" DB with no real vertical leap to justify such a feat.

I have knockdown at 1 for human and 0 for cpu, so this doesn't stick out as that big an issue for me. In the overall scheme of things, the secondary does get a few too many knockdowns, but it is not over done.

Quote:

Also too much is focused on the "STAT" well we can get close but you don't need to depend on some stats to see the obvious and DBs leaping 10-15 feet vertically in the air should be obvious to any fan of the sport.

I agree 100%. Sometimes actual nfl stats in comparison need to be thrown out in order to get the ebb and flow and realistic feeling out of the game. For example: Pancake stats are too high (whether they are or aren't, this is just an example).....ok, so what? Does the running game feel right? Does the running game produce realistic average stats? If the running game is right, it trumps pancake stats for me. If bringing pancake stats in line with nfl averages screws up the running game, bigger problems are created rather than solved.

Quote:

There are just too many intangebles to concider and blaming one slider isn't fair because of a QBs lack of skill and talent...if he sucks then thats on him not the slider,again just my two cents worth!!!

I agree. The interaction between various sliders and how they work is hard to figure out. I believe Playmakers has done an excellent job deciphering them.

Perhaps I didn't state my main point clearly. I believe once you master the passing cone, the passing game is too easy. The two main reasons for this are that the qbs are too accurate and receivers catch too many passes. This cannot be solved by lowering QBA because it kills the deep game.

Messing with CPU sliders on defense (specially once you've found good settings with regards to the running game) introduces different problems such as a high knockdown and awareness slider gets you swatting machine DBs, plus messing with awareness introduces issues in the running game.

You could mess with pass block, but once you have that at a realistic and fun level, lowering it doesn't really hurry the human qb and force him to make bad throws as much as it introduces sacks. To avoid those you hit the checkdown out of the backfield which gains too many yards a majority of the time in my opinion. So the problem remains, the passing game is too easy.

The only option left is to tweak WRC. You can find a spot where you introduce a few drops resulting from being hit, having the qb hurried, or going for the catch in traffic. You also introduce a small amount of drops that result from no pressure and no hit - drops that hit the guy in the hands and should be caught. If you can keep these no pressure/no hit drops to less than 2 a game, I think it serves to bring out the challenge in the passing game and bring human qb stats down to a more realistic level. If you are seeing passes hit guys in the hands that are dropped continually, then yeah, you've put WRC too low. There is a fine balance in there where you can hopefully separate the better pass catchers from the poorer ones. If lowering WRC only serves to force everyone, good and bad, to drop more passes, nothing is added to the game.

[KingV2k3]

I go with QB ACC of 9 and CTH of 12...

IMO the QBs on both sides of the ball are too accurate and when the CTH is below 12 the drops end up going too high...

This gets me about 1-3 drops per game by both sides and they are usually TE's backs and lower rated recivers in 4-5 wide sets...

[Rickster101]

Quote: Originally Posted by mudtiger

That's just it though, madden qbs don't make bad throws. Granted with the addition of the passing cone, if you don't have your receiver highlighted you'll see a bad throw. Otherwise though, once you are efficient with the cone it seems like any qb will be on target with every pass. When I say bad throws, I'm not talking about a pass that lands 10 yards short, but the little things that make a bad pass uncatchable even when a guy gets his hand or hands on it. Like being thrown behind a guy streaking across the middle of the field or being thrown just a tad too low or high, you don't see those things in madden, or at least I haven't. I may very well be way off on this as I have played the majority of my games with SD. Brees is not the best, but no slouch. I don't see bad passes out of him in madden. I should see them. In the end, it may be that individual teams need to be tweaked slightly to get them to play closer to the real thing. So I put forth the easiest way to simulate those things is to lower WRC a tiny amount (at least for me playing with SD). Hopefully it can separate the good receivers from the bad too. Messing with QBA doesn't help because if you lower it below 10, deep passing ability suffers. I have no problem with the knockdown slider and agree with you. It does what it is supposed to do. Again, I agree with you. My issue is that in madden you don't see those over thrown or off target passes unless you screw up the cone. I would think it comes down to EA saying if you have the cone on a guy, the player will think something is wrong if the qb throws an off target pass. People would complain about that, but yet it happens in the real nfl. Passes are not always perfect. If the STATS stat is right and I am reading it correctly, even the best receivers only catch 60 some percent of the balls thrown at them. That's not to say they drop near 40%, but passes are off target, they get knocked down, and some are dropped. I would guess in madden, the best receivers catch a lot more than 60 some percent of the balls thrown at them because bad throws aren't a big part of the madden equation. I agree 100% with Playmakers in this area, better WRs stand out here and make the catch on bad passes. They make average qbs look better than they are. In madden, the poor catching WRs catch as well as the sure hands guys. What's the point of getting TO on your team when Eric Parker gets the job done just as well? I have knockdown at 1 for human and 0 for cpu, so this doesn't stick out as that big an issue for me. In the overall scheme of things, the secondary does get a few too many knockdowns, but it is not over done. I agree 100%. Sometimes actual nfl stats in comparison need to be thrown out in order to get the ebb and flow and realistic feeling out of the game. For example: Pancake stats are too high (whether they are or aren't, this is just an example).....ok, so what? Does the running game feel right? Does the running game produce realistic average stats? If the running game is right, it trumps pancake stats for me. If bringing pancake stats in line with nfl averages screws up the running game, bigger problems are created rather than solved. I agree. The interaction between various sliders and how they work is hard to figure out. I believe Playmakers has done an excellent job deciphering them. Perhaps I didn't state my main point clearly. I believe once you master the passing cone, the passing game is too easy. The two main reasons for this are that the qbs are too accurate and receivers catch too many passes. This cannot be solved by lowering QBA because it kills the deep game. Messing with CPU sliders on defense (specially once you've found good settings with regards to the running game) introduces different problems such as a high knockdown and awareness slider gets you swatting machine DBs, plus messing with awareness introduces issues in the running game. You could mess with pass block, but once you have that at a realistic and fun level, lowering it doesn't really hurry the human qb and force him to make bad throws as much as it introduces sacks. To avoid those you hit the checkdown out of the backfield which gains too many yards a majority of the time in my opinion. So the problem remains, the passing game is too easy. The only option left is to tweak WRC. You can find a spot where you introduce a few drops resulting from being hit, having the qb hurried, or going for the catch in traffic. You also introduce a small amount of drops that result from no pressure and no hit - drops that hit the guy in the hands and should be caught. If you can keep these no pressure/no hit drops to less than 2 a game, I think it serves to bring out the challenge in the passing game and bring human qb stats down to a more realistic level. If you are seeing passes hit guys in the hands that are dropped continually, then yeah, you've put WRC too low. There is a fine balance in there where you can hopefully separate the better pass catchers from the poorer ones. If lowering WRC only serves to force everyone, good and bad, to drop more passes, nothing is added to the game.

Excellent post and reply,you've pretty much broken me down point on point bro! Why aren't you on my coaching staff?

This is what I like to see and read guys who have actually broken the game down and can relate like this absolutly point on point strategy and opinions,I see we have some things in common here from what you're saying bro you should do this more often,now I can see where your heads at and it makes it easier to relate for me anyway...excellent reply one of the best for me in awhile and very,very much on topic and to the point,however there are a few things said here that stand out as really N/A for me anyway and that would be the passing vision feature...its cute,nice,pretty and ok but as far it being something I use in games lets say I've got mixed feelings about it...I've got more faith in my arm and talent as opposed to a flash light gimick thats suppose to help who?

It does work and I practice it and all but in real games I'd rather not bother,I'm stickin' with what I'm comfy and familiar with...my QB and his trusty arm and skills...yep...don't really have a practical use for it but find it fun and a challenge when practicing or just foolin' around...its cool just not my thing keeping it at about 10-12 for QBA seems to be about right for me and 12 for my WRC...I have noticed that QBA 10 and WRC 12 works pretty good together but I have used higher settings for the WRC because I look for animations to step up especially for recievers to make some pretty impressive catchs...not over the top just enough to crank out that animation for a spectacular catch you know reply and highlight material!!!

I pretty much see that we agree on a lotta things with Madden some good some odd in my view of things but overall pretty much on the same page here so I'm just going to enjoy it and have a little fun with it,its been alright by me so far...not a shared view but it works for me!!!


Holla Back y'all
Rickster101