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M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Old 10-28-2012, 10:11 PM   #817
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Originally Posted by MarketingWiz
Got your back pimp... The winner DEFINITELY is GAMEFLOW. My concern is that on GAMEFLOW, you can dial up an "aggressive" run defense an infinitude amount of times. And as my little lab test already bore out, if you consistently "dial-it" up, the type of sliders you will need, would not do justice to the presentation of the animations nor the SIM experience. Let me explain.

Certainly we can all agree that if you dial up CPU BRK TKL, and RUN BLK, to "99".... And dial down HUM RUN REAC, BLK SHED, and TKL, to let's say "1".... And set the SPEED THRESH to "0", I assure you, that you will not be able to stop the CPU running game AT ALL. And herein lies the rub. And then to counter the cartoonish animations, and a BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAASSSSSSST CPU RB, you then have to dial up the HUM RUN REAC, BLK SHED, TKL sliders, and move SPEED THRESH up to 65 or higher. Are you starting to see the problem?

If you tweak the RUN BLK and BRK TKL sliders too much, the animations become cartoonish, non-Sunday like. So in essence, to maintain a balance between great animations, realistic stats, a credible CPU running game, and allow the HUM to control the HUM defensive play-calling and action by switching defenders constantly, the AI in M13 cannot deliver the goods for all these wishes. Sooo, something's gotta give.

What I have proposed be sacrificed is HUM Defensive control. By foregoing, switching defenders, and having to play within "vanilla" defenses provided by Ask Madden, the CPU run game can "breathe", stretch out it's legs, and produce respectable stats, while keeping the animations from becoming cartoonish.

The problem I have with GAMEFLOW, is that you do indeed have a selection of more plays than ASK MADDEN. So if you factor in the competitive nature in each one of us, our tendency would be to "cheese it" and find the most aggressive, balanced, blitz, and simply annihilate the A.I. for the CPU running and passing as my previous post bore out in the lab.

Now, if you are going to make a "pinky promise" to lay off the aggressive defense selections in GAMEFLOW and play a more "balanced" defensive approach, then GAMEFLOW and/or calling your own BALANCED defensive plays, will do the trick with this slider group. The key here is being honest with yourself and keeping the "pinky promise."

I have noticed that if I accept the "vanilla/lame-a.ss" defenses provided by Ask Madden, I don't have to worry about "the pinky promise" and can have a competitive, realistic, properly animated sim experience. In fact, with regards to the audibles I choose on Defense, if I choose any type of blitz package (and I do choose a few), I make sure that the blitz package IS NOT BALANCED. Why? Because my data has proven time and time again to me in the lab, that it is not the blitz that is the killer, it is the BALANCE of the blitz that the A.I. cannot process. It's as if the new "infinity engine" that produces all the funny pinball like collision animations, "freezes up" for a micro-second of indecision when you dial up a balanced blitz, and it's this microsecond that allows the HUM defensive blitz to "surround" the CPU RB and not allow him to be productive. If the blitz is unbalanced, it's as if the CPU RB is programmed to cut away from the direction of the blitz and not necessarily run into the teeth of it like it does when the blitz is balanced.

A lot of rambling, I know. But I get really pumped up to share what I see and track in my lab/cave.

Bottom line is that CPU run game is broken in M13, even post-patch. However, IF YOU ARE willing to make the "pinky promise" or buy into my HOUSE RULES, you can work around this inherent flaw in M13.

Just my 2 cents...
Not sure if I like just sitting back on defense, but I don't know if it matters anyway. What I've found is that the middle game flow option will generally give you a good sim experience, so I don't stray from it too much. There are times when, if I'm playing a good running team, I'll start to get overwhelmed by the rush. That's when I go the aggressive defense, because it makes sense then. However, it's a double edged sword because the sliders make the rb so good, a juke or spin can sometimes make my over aggressive defense miss a tackle and he'll break out for 20+ yards. I've found this to be more realistic than audibling into a blitz on the field.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:25 PM   #818
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Originally Posted by BrianU
Some more thoughts for ya amigo..

I took the liberty to look over the Gameplans of the NY Jets playbook. I did this to see how the CPU chooses plays as I believe they conform to these choices. The plays are broken down into ? and Short, ? and Medium, and ? and Long basically.

For the Short yardage plays which are mainly runs they consider under 3 yards to be short. For Medium yardage between 3 and 8 yards, and long is 8+ yards. The language is a little confusing but I am assuming it considers short to be 1 yard or 2 yards to go, and 3 yards to 7 yards as medium, and 8 yards or more as long.

I haven't gotten around to playing much today with the games on and other stuff and this week is busy so it may not be till the weekend but going forward with my modified house rules I will be using my own defensive plays until the CPU needs 2 yards or less then picking one of the AskMadden plays in that situation. I played a little with V6 and am interested to see how others feel the USER rushing is, I found it quite difficult but I am not the greatest in the world so I will be sticking with it and upping my game if others find it is hard but not impossible to run. I like challenges. I felt V5 was too easy to run and prefer it to be too hard than too easy. If any change is needed at this early stage I would say possibly raise USER Run Blocking maybe to 2 or 3 but I am waiting to see others feedback. Thanks for all your hard work Wizkid we are looking good!
GREAAAAAT.... I prefer tougher games rather than easier games also.... I tried to go back and capture the flavor of V.3, which was the last pre-patch set. I felt that, the V.3 set, was close to perfection.... What I liked about that set was that HUM running was challenging, NO FRICKING GIMMIES, and the CPU running game was ready to pin its ears back and steamroll you like armadillo Texas road kill.....

V.6 is beautiful.... And if you are looking to "tinker" under the hood, please be advised that I have cracked M13's slider code...

For those of you who like tackling sliders and would like to tune them to your own tastes, listen up....

I believe most will agree that the HUM and CPU passing game is spot on with V.6... If you find that it favors CPU than lower the WR CTCH slider by 10 fricking points to 45.... If you believe that the HUM passing game is too easy for you, then lower the QB ACC slider down, from 7 to 5, or 6. SPEED THRESH is not tied to the act of throwing or catching the rock....

DO NOT TOUCH CPU/HUM PASS BLK or the CPU/HUM PASS RUSH.... You will screw up the passing game more than you can imagine.... PASS BLK is tied to PASS RUSH slider, they kind of complement each other.... BUT, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the SPEED THRESH is FULLY TIED INTO both of these sliders and INFLUENCES PASS RUSH and PASS BLK....

Soooo, simply moving one slider to address sacks (either to increase them or decrease them), WILL NOT fix your issue, in fact it will ruin the slider set .... you would have to move two sliders in complementing tandem and then, and only then, test your settings at DIFFERENT SPEED THRESH settings to get the desired "feel/time in the pocket" that you desire to dial in....

Furthermore, DO NOT TOUCH CPU/HUM BRK TKL or CPU/HUM RUN BLK or CPU/HUM RUN REAC, or CPU/HUM TKLING, or CPU HUM BLK SHED to fix ANY aspect of the CPU or HUM running game.... These sliders all work in unison and INSTANTLY become obsolete, the moment you change the SPEED THRESH....

TA DA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IT IS.... The crippling "krypton green crystal" that first reared it's powers in Superman movies.







This green crystal has crippled and utterly frustrated all "slider gurus" since M13 was dropped in August has now been identified and I believe, solved through V.6...

The formula to solve the "optimum slider set" or the Holy Grail of Madden as I've coined it, actually turned out to be quite simple once I understood how the game's A.I. reacts to slider tweaks...

LISTEN UP LADIES, here is the KEY: M13 A.I. is directly tied to SPEED THRESHOLD. In other words, every game speed setting: VERY SLOW, SLOW, NORMAL, FAST, and VERY FAST, has a corresponding, OPTIMUM, speed thresh / slider combo setting....

As you all know, I have been striving for the Holy Grail of Madden since M13 dropped. What is the Holy Grail? Glad you asked.

For me, I define it as:

1) Realistic Animaitons
2) Realistic Gameplay from the BEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAASTS / Studs
3) Realistic Stats
4) Realistic "Feel", not overly fast, not overly slow
5) Realistic "Ebb & Flow", a back in forth, tug of wills between you and the CPU
6) Realistic Peripherals, meaning proper amount of injuries, total plays, etc.

My slider effort has been to try to reach the aforementioned goals, through choices in game speed, speed thresh and slider settings. Unfortunately, M13's A.I. has its flaws. In fact, we all know that unfortunately, M13 has two serious flaws. CPU gameplay calling, CPU running game. There are other issues, but these two have been deal breakers for many, and have driven many Maddenites to return M13 for credit or to pick up NBA 2k13....

Wellll, for those that have been patient with the thread, I believe that we are all going to benefit from our collective efforts, because V.6, has incorporated my "A-HAA" moment and is the FIRST version of sliders that I have created that incorporates and harmonizes the following three areas:

1) Game speed: Slow
2) Selection of a slider set to match SLOW game speed
3) Selection of a Speed Thresh setting that complements the Game Speed and slider set

I can tell you with 1000% certainty that passing and catching the rock ARE NOT tied to Game speed nor Speed Thresh, they are simply a function of moving the slider up and down.

I can tell you with 1000% certainty that the rest of the game plays within the aforementioned triad of factors: game speed choice, speed thresh choice, and sliders that you dial in.

If you doubt my theory, try the following test.

1) DO NOT move the sliders
2) Change speed thresh to "0"

I guarantee you that the CPU RB and HUM RB will now be able to snap off HUGE LONG RUNS....GUARANTEED!!!!! Realistic? No...

Now, you may be asking yourself, why am I going through all of this jibberish? Because you want to improve HUM run game by raising HUM RUN BLK by 2 or 3 units.... Will not work bud. You would be better off, considering dropping CPU TKL to 0 or CPU BLK SHED to 0.... But the SURE FIRE solution would be to lower speed thresh to 60, 55, or 50 and voila, problem solved. The problem is that you have now also put the CPU running game on 'roids.... So then you are going to want to futz with HUM TKL, HUM BLK SHED and HUM RUN REAC, to counter the BEEEEEEEAAAAASSSST CPU running game.... And once you start doing this, you are out of the game, the sliders are shot and useless!

Bottom line, there is smidge of know-how and skill involved in slider creation...

And just an FYI, my lab data indicates that the OPTIMUM speed thresh setting for SLOW game speed, is actually around 73 -77... I just didn't care for the pace of the HUM /CPU running game at that setting, I felt as if my team was running in sand... Now at 73-77, the sliders would be different, not the same ones as V.6...

So in closing, there is very LIMITED areas and ranges that these sliders can get messed with before you render them obsolete....

Trust me when I tell you that V.6 sliders are battle tested.... Studs will kill you, and if you game plan properly, they still MAY kill you...

You will notice how simplistic the sliders are, this is because you get the best animations and player attributes as programmed by EA, by using simplistic, "zero" oriented sliders...

In fact, I am going to coin another phrase.... "Zero is the Hero"... Of course, to have the proper "zero hero" you also need the right game speed and the proper speed thresh... If you don't have all three, then the Holy Grail of Madden will only be a mirage on your flat screen... Lates.




Keep playin'! Keep postin'! Keep Maddening!

the Gospel of Madden has spoken.

Last edited by MarketingWiz; 10-28-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:24 PM   #819
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

Okay, I've read your warnings, and heeded your house rules but I'm getting destroyed by the CPU in my career as the Rams. Yes, the Rams suck (and I probably suck), but Steven Jackson is still a 96 and he's not performing like a BEEEAAASSST. I'm getting stuffed in the run game, but passing feels spot on. What can I do to make running a little easier without destroying the balance?
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:34 PM   #820
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Originally Posted by JarrodR85
Okay, I've read your warnings, and heeded your house rules but I'm getting destroyed by the CPU in my career as the Rams. Yes, the Rams suck (and I probably suck), but Steven Jackson is still a 96 and he's not performing like a BEEEAAASSST. I'm getting stuffed in the run game, but passing feels spot on. What can I do to make running a little easier without destroying the balance?
How good is your o-line? Do they have run or pass blocking tendencies? I've noticed that these sliders really bring out the attributes of the whole team; for example, I had an o-line that that had horrible pass blocking at RG and RT; those guys gave up a ton of sacks throughout the year. Also try running out of strong and I formations and just follow your FB blocker. These suggestions may be kind of elementary, but I would look into these areas first before futzing with the sliders - like wiz said, messing even a little bit trows it all out of whack.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:40 PM   #821
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Originally Posted by Weewam
How good is your o-line? Do they have run or pass blocking tendencies? I've noticed that these sliders really bring out the attributes of the whole team; for example, I had an o-line that that had horrible pass blocking at RG and RT; those guys gave up a ton of sacks throughout the year. Also try running out of strong and I formations and just follow your FB blocker. These suggestions may be kind of elementary, but I would look into these areas first before futzing with the sliders - like wiz said, messing even a little bit trows it all out of whack.
My center and RG are both excellent run blockers. everyone else is low 80's. My RT isn't great, so runs to the outside right are tough, especially since S-Jax is slow, but I should be able to pound it up the middle and I'm just getting shut down. I mean, I can run out of good run formations, but I'll be breaking the sanctified house rules of of the Madden gospel. If that's what it takes, then so be it I guess.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:09 AM   #822
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrodR85
Okay, I've read your warnings, and heeded your house rules but I'm getting destroyed by the CPU in my career as the Rams. Yes, the Rams suck (and I probably suck), but Steven Jackson is still a 96 and he's not performing like a BEEEAAASSST. I'm getting stuffed in the run game, but passing feels spot on. What can I do to make running a little easier without destroying the balance?
Glad to see you drop in for a chat with da Wiz....Ok, so let me get this straight....

You have dialed in the newest sliders and started in a new CCM franchise as the Lambs... And as the Lambs, Mr. Jackson cannot move the rock, correct?

My suggestions would initially be to look at how you run the ball... If you are trying to run the ball to the outside, this IS NOT Jackson's strength... Jackson's strength is to run BETWEEN the tackles. Also, if you are trying to run in single back sets, you better have a great RT on the o-line, which of course the Lambs don't.... So knowing this, you must run the ball with 1TE - 1FB sets at the minimum... More than likely you will need to consider 2TE - 1FB sets and run the ball inside the tackles, seek power runs where you are trailing a pulling guard, the full back, and go off tackle, between a tackle and one of the 2TE's.... If ASK MADDEN is not providing you these play calls, then consider GAMEFLOW, make sure that you up your accel clock to 15 secs, so that you have enough time to have GAMEFLOW find the right running set for you... Just don't cheese.... Mix in passing as well...Which leads me the following: Try to use THE PASS, to set up the run... If the CPU has no fear of the deep ball/screens/slants, etc., then you are always going to get safeties teeing off on your RB and linebackers clipping their ears back and bee-lining toward your RB....

Regarding sliders, I would consider moving CPU RUN REAC down 10 units, and then CPU BLK SHED and CPU BRK TKL down to "0"....

I don't want to insinuate that your skills are weak, but SLIDERS should NOT cure weaknesses in your execution and solid game planning....The above slider recommendations may not do it for you, so you may need to consider moving speed thresh all the way down to 50... If this is the case, these sliders WILL NOT work for the CPU run game, the CPU pass rush and the HUM pass blocking... You will be a beast in HUM rushing, but the rest of your experience will be shot....

Please understand that the running game works in a triad and SPEED THRESH is the linchpin.... Sliders MUST BE designed to the game speed, and more importantly to the speed thresh chosen.... I have meticulously dialed these sliders in specifically to work within the range of speed thresh of 60 - 70.... There is a little bit of wiggle room for slightly improving or deflating the CPU run game by futzing with the CPU run blk slider, and for the HUM run game, ditto, by futzing with CPU BRK TKL / CPU TKL / CPU RUN REAC sliders, but the gains are not game changers....

Bottom line, keep practicing, you will improve... Make sure that you go into PRACTICE mode before playing a game and work on following your blocks, improving your "one-cut" moves, and "seeing the hole"....

Peace brah....


Keep playin'! Keep postin'! Keep Maddening!

the Gospel of Madden has spoken.

Last edited by MarketingWiz; 10-29-2012 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:54 AM   #823
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

Just got off work and halfway through my first game with the new sliders. Will have box score and feedback soon. Already have a few notes.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:03 AM   #824
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Re: M13 KILLER SLIDERS FOR OFFLINE CCM... GUARANTEED CPU RUN GAME

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Originally Posted by [email protected]@n
I'm about to plug these sliders in and give it a whirl. lol, im sooooo ready to start my season already!
Kudos bro.... That's why I want the thread to vet out these sliders quickly so that we can finalize them and then move forward with our franchises ....

As you can see from the sliders, there isn't much futzing to do....

Pass game is fine as is.... If you want more WR drops, then drop WR CTCH to 45....

Run game for CPU and HUM is a triad function.... If you don't like the CPU or HUM run game, then the SPEED THRESH has to be lowered and if you do that, you will need to futz with the HUM and CPU sliders until you tame the SPEED THRESH advantage you threw in by lowering it from where it is set....

The problem is that the more you increase the sliders from zero settings, the more you get away from the natural attributes of the virtual players, and therein lies the rub matey ....

I have considered going to ALL-PRO, slow setting and working on a set for that setting, because it will provide those Maddenites that DO NOT have the skill set or game planning patience to tackle these sliders, more wiggle room to have a slider set that will provide more latitude and slider range for them to adjust to fit their skill level....

My base would be:

1) All-PRO
2) Game speed slow
3) Speed thresh at 65 and work my way up to 75, and then down to 50 to find out what feels just right as far as player and play development
4) Leave throwing and catching setting where they are at
5) And then begin testing rush times to set the PASS BLK and DEF PASS RUSH sliders for both HUM and CPU... Would then have to test this at different SPEED THRESH settings to get the right feel and speed
6) And then finally futz with the running game sliders for days, maybe even weeks, to get the right mix of magic, to make the run game seem like the NFL on Sundays...Would then have to test this at different SPEED THRESH settings to find the proper feel and speed
7) Leave all the other settings the same as ALL-Madden for special teams and penalties....


Phhhheeeewwww, that would be a lot of work.... I think I will stick with ALL-MADDEN and let some other pimp do the work for an ALL-PRO set... Unless, I get bored over Xmas break and get motivated to develop and ALL-PRO set.... Hmmmmm

Out.


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