Madden 2006 Experiments

[gooberstabone]

Quote: Originally Posted by fossen

I ran a popular forum, too. One about enjoying games, and discussing them. Maybe you heard of it? I can't count the number of longtime posters that have said im PM, IM or other forums: "I won't go near the Madden/NCAA/MVP/etc. forum anymore. All people want to do is post their bugs. And they kill the fun by pointing out all the stuff I would never have noticed. So I just stay away." Anyways - you didn't answer my question. What's the game that got you into sports gaming (assuming you didn't come in to the hobby looking for bugs)? Was it as bug-fee as you expect Madden to be?

That's actually part of the reason I left. Not so much the posting of bugs per se, but the overall general negativity, the negative attitudes of some, esp. the back and forth bickering. And I do agree, that most of this stuff is pointing out stuff I would never have noticed.


Spin, I do think you ought to reevaluate your post because what you described were not solutions, (how could they be?) because we don't know if they are even problems. So really what you are doing is "bug huntin'."

Fossen, what's a snark? lol. Also, you gotta stop it with those funny references, first it was Snidely Whiplash, now SPACE VAMPIRE! I remember that from Buck Rodgers.

[Troller]

Quote: Originally Posted by fossen

I ran a popular forum, too. One about enjoying games, and discussing them. Maybe you heard of it? I can't count the number of longtime posters that have said im PM, IM or other forums: "I won't go near the Madden/NCAA/MVP/etc. forum anymore. All people want to do is post their bugs. And they kill the fun by pointing out all the stuff I would never have noticed. So I just stay away." Anyways - you didn't answer my question. What's the game that got you into sports gaming (assuming you didn't come in to the hobby looking for bugs)? Was it as bug-fee as you expect Madden to be?

I know what I want out of my games, especially football games. Realism is what makes it fun for most, because no one will ever get to play in the real NFL. That is why people create draft classes, start franchises, mimic the season moves of real teams in the game......that what is fun to most people in these forums. In order for that "fun" to work, the realism of the game must work. All spin wants to do is make sure the realistic facets of the game work properly before he invests his leisure time into it. It would suck to get deep into a season and discover a problem that cannot be altered or hidden or repaired. You feel like you have totally wasted your time, so I know exactly what he is thinking, and it makes total sense. He is not sucking the fun out of the game, but trying to make it fun for himself and people like me who want it to be as real as possible. Fossen, you say he is looking for flaws and not just having fun with the game. What would be an unacceptable problem in the game for you? What if they game didnt count every 3rd touchdown you scored? Unacceptable right? But then if you apply your logic, your not just having fun with the game. Accept it's flaws and have fun, right? You wouldnt do that, because the game not counting your score correctly isnt fun. So, what if being able to run the same play over and over, or fatigue not working properly bothers him just as much as a score flaw would bother you?

[Troller]

Also, I have seen you reprimand many people for personal attacks and while I could care less if someone attacks me with every name in the book, spin never addressed you or said anything to you and your posts categorize him with people that "suck all the fun out", "problem hunters", "snarks", and "space vampires". What exactly did he deserve all that for besides post something meant for people that agree with the style he likes to play. He was not trying to start a problem and you come in here trying to sink his battleship. What's the deal?

[dbrandon]

Quote: Originally Posted by spin16

Last year at Madden Wishlist we ran a bunch of "experiments" on Madden 2005 when we got our hands on it. I'm looking to do the same again this year, though I probably won't be getting the game until late August or September. Here are the things I'm thinking of doing. Feel free to suggest more tests, or do them yourself when you get the game: (1) Test the injury slider. Crank it all the way to the maximum value, and count injuries in a game -- see if a very large number of injuries result. (2) Repeat #1 for the false start slider. (3) Test progression. Simulate 15-20 years out in franchise mode, and calculate the average rating at each position is about the same as the average rating when the franchise started. In previous Maddens, many positions would be completely screwy (no LT's rated above 80, no MLB's below 95, etc.) Relentless at MN is working on this one now, so we may know something soon. (4) RFA logic. See if they fixed the problem of teams giving up high 1st and 3rd round picks for highly rated fullbacks. See if RFA's will reject contract offers. See if other teams can put in bids on RFA's after you do, including their current team. (5) Do the DB AI test we did last year. See 7/29 log from: http://www.maddenwishlist.com/info/madden2005.html (6) Test Progressive fatigue. Run the ball every time with a certain RB, and report the number of runs he had and what his energy level is (from the formation subs screen) starting in the 4th quarter at the start of a new series. Also report what the energy level of the defense is at that time. Repeat with RB's of varying stamina ratings. (7) Adaptive AI. Run the same route on All-Madden over and over. Report how many plays can be run before it's completely ineffective. Repeat varying route, WR, and DB involved. Also do same test again, interspersing 1-2 running plays in between this passing route. Do test again, interspersing different passing routes. (8) Test the simulation engine. A big part of the problem with the #1 offense, #32 defense is that the simulation engine is way off -- teams don't put up nearly enough yardage, so of course CPU offenses look weak, and defenses look strong. Test this by simulating several 2005 seasons (simulate 2005 over and over as not to let bugs in the progression system mess up this test) and computing statistical averages in the categories listed here: http://www.maddenwishlist.com/info/top21_quickfix.php Compare the averages against NFL statistics at: http://www.nfl.com/stats/ (9) See if CPU depth chart management / position battle logic has improved. In 2005, CPU teams would often put young players who were more highly rated behind low-rated aging players. This makes no sense, particularly for rebuilding teams. (10) See if they fixed the safety regression problem -- for some reason, safeties consistently get worse in the playoffs in 2005. (11) Redo player weight experiment for offensive line described here: http://www.maddenwishlist.com/info/sizes.php (12) See if progressive fatigue runs throughout the season as well (i.e., players start games more tired in December). (13) See if CPU teams use all their cap space in later years of the franchise. (In 2004/2005, CPU teams on average would have 40% of their cap space going unused 10 years into the franchise.) (14) Test QB accuracy slider. Go into practice mode on default sliders, throw a 55 yard fly route, see if the ball goes as far as it needs to. Then bring down QB accuracy slider very low, repeat -- what's the maximum distance that the ball will go now? (15) Test effect of low contract offers on morale. If you offer a guy half of what he's asking for, by what percentage does his morale drop? If his morale is at 50%, by what percentage does your contract offer have to increase compared to his morale being at 100%?

Wow you put alot into this. Want I have done with any EA sport game is NO matter what they say they have or haven't done. I wait and judge for myself and one thing I do know i9s that EA is about 90% hype. They rarely do what we ask of them and almost never do what they they say they have done. I have nothing against them I just don't believe them. I am always that year after year we go through the same stuff with them.

[Mossfan8480]

Quote: Originally Posted by fossen

I can't count the number of longtime posters that have said im PM, IM or other forums: "I won't go near the Madden/NCAA/MVP/etc. forum anymore. All people want to do is post their bugs. And they kill the fun by pointing out all the stuff I would never have noticed. So I just stay away."

I think I might take that approach with Madden this year. I can't take the risk of being disappointed with the only football game available and being left with nothing to play.

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by Troller

I know what I want out of my games, especially football games. Realism is what makes it fun for most, because no one will ever get to play in the real NFL. That is why people create draft classes, start franchises, mimic the season moves of real teams in the game......that what is fun to most people in these forums. In order for that "fun" to work, the realism of the game must work. All spin wants to do is make sure the realistic facets of the game work properly before he invests his leisure time into it. It would suck to get deep into a season and discover a problem that cannot be altered or hidden or repaired. You feel like you have totally wasted your time, so I know exactly what he is thinking, and it makes total sense. He is not sucking the fun out of the game, but trying to make it fun for himself and people like me who want it to be as real as possible. Fossen, you say he is looking for flaws and not just having fun with the game. What would be an unacceptable problem in the game for you? What if they game didnt count every 3rd touchdown you scored? Unacceptable right? But then if you apply your logic, your not just having fun with the game. Accept it's flaws and have fun, right? You wouldnt do that, because the game not counting your score correctly isnt fun. So, what if being able to run the same play over and over, or fatigue not working properly bothers him just as much as a score flaw would bother you?

I'm not sure all that is what's fun to "most" of the people in these forums. I don't mind a realistic experience, but I don't want to recreate the NFL exactly. I just want an atmosphere to be able to interact with and do what I, the player and football fan, want. I definitely don't see the point in researching every aspect of the game to ensure it mimics real life. As long as the game functions properly and gives me entertainment, it did its job. And a lot of these problems, especially with gameplay issues like the progressive fatigue, you'll be able see and measure their impact after just a few games, I'm sure.

I understand some want the game to be an exact sim, but is it really worth going through and testing every facet in a scientific manner to make it one, if that's even possible? I wouldn't and don't think so.

[Troller]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

I'm not sure all that is what's fun to "most" of the people in these forums. I don't mind a realistic experience, but I don't want to recreate the NFL exactly. I just want an atmosphere to be able to interact with and do what I, the player and football fan, want. I definitely don't see the point in researching every aspect of the game to ensure it mimics real life. As long as the game functions properly and gives me entertainment, it did its job. And a lot of these problems, especially with gameplay issues like the progressive fatigue, you'll be able see and measure their impact after just a few games, I'm sure. I understand some want the game to be an exact sim, but is it really worth going through and testing every facet in a scientific manner to make it one, if that's even possible? I wouldn't and don't think so.

I agree, except that your qoute,"as long as the game functions properly" has an extremely broad definition. Something working properly to you may be broken to someone else. I had a car for a year that got me from point a to point b but smoked badly and dripped oil evrywhere. The car functioned in it's duty to transport me, but was it enjoyable and would I say it functioned properly? No way. I had to get it fixed to enjoy the ride. That is why spin is trying to "fix " his problems. So he can enjoy and make it function properly for him and people like him.

[fossen]

Quote: Originally Posted by Troller

I know what I want out of my games, especially football games. Realism is what makes it fun for most, because no one will ever get to play in the real NFL. That is why people create draft classes, start franchises, mimic the season moves of real teams in the game......that what is fun to most people in these forums. In order for that "fun" to work, the realism of the game must work. All spin wants to do is make sure the realistic facets of the game work properly before he invests his leisure time into it. It would suck to get deep into a season and discover a problem that cannot be altered or hidden or repaired. You feel like you have totally wasted your time, so I know exactly what he is thinking, and it makes total sense. He is not sucking the fun out of the game, but trying to make it fun for himself and people like me who want it to be as real as possible. Fossen, you say he is looking for flaws and not just having fun with the game. What would be an unacceptable problem in the game for you? What if they game didnt count every 3rd touchdown you scored? Unacceptable right? But then if you apply your logic, your not just having fun with the game. Accept it's flaws and have fun, right? You wouldnt do that, because the game not counting your score correctly isnt fun. So, what if being able to run the same play over and over, or fatigue not working properly bothers him just as much as a score flaw would bother you?

Paragraphs are your friend.

My point has nothing to do with what bugs count and what don't. That's not what I'm talking about at all. As I've stated a few times, it's about the approach. How about you play the game ... and if something sticks out that's a disaster, then there it is? What's wrong with that?

Why go out of your way to find problems? If there's a bug, and you never notice it because you're busy playing .... is it a bug? It's not about what bugs you consider important, it's about being more interested in finding problems and making a message board name for yourself then you are in the game itself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Troller

Also, I have seen you reprimand many people for personal attacks and while I could care less if someone attacks me with every name in the book, spin never addressed you or said anything to you and your posts categorize him with people that "suck all the fun out", "problem hunters", "snarks", and "space vampires". What exactly did he deserve all that for besides post something meant for people that agree with the style he likes to play. He was not trying to start a problem and you come in here trying to sink his battleship. What's the deal?

Please. Not the "mods can't disagree" thing again ....

I'm assuming you can tell the difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person. I don't care for what spin (or any bughunter) does ... but I have no opinion on him as a person. He didn't "post it for people who agree" ... you don't get to dictate the responses you get on a message board. It's about discussion, and that entails people with different views. That discussion needs to be done with respect, but it doesn't mean we all have to agree.