agree or disagree?...**long read**

[quietcool72]

Wow.. helluva rant there.

Look, I'd be the first to admit Madden should improve. But lets face it- to this day, no football game maker has ever promised some miracle "sim engine" that seems to have become the Holy Grail for some of the fans out there.

That being said- your criticism of EA can apply to any sports game-maker out there. 2K hasn't done it, Midway sure hasn't done it, nor Tecmo, nor Acclaim- nobody.

(some would argue that Front Page Sports football in the mid 90s did have a sim engine on PC, and to an extend I would agree- but many of us want good player control- not just a solid coach mode, and that's where FPS bowed out and didn't compete.)

So nobody has done what you ask. Period. Not in baseball, basketball, hockey, or football. So keep that in mind before you give 60 minutes a call and you leave a voicemail that they inevitably ignore. Lets face it, compared to hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, government corruption, Al Queda, and famines in Africa, I don't think too many news networks would call your self-important criticism of EA that newsworthy. So you really need to come to grips with that right now.

But i think you also really need to realize how artificial intelligence works. Look, you could program a game that simulated an NFL season and "reign-in" the stats of simmed games to equal last year's NFL stats - or close (given percentage tolerances that would be programmed in.) But how fun is that? Is it realistic to have Payton Manning throwing between 45 to 50 TD passes per year no matter what?

Think of it this way-
Lets say you program a baseball game with a strict "sim engine." Lets say you control A-Rod at a key at bat. Now A-Rod is batting .350 so far for your season, but the AI tolerance of how you can hit your next at-bat is .321 with a modifier of plus or minus .028.

You are already at .350 for your season, so a "correction" is due- whereby A-Rod won't get a hit, no matter how well timed, placed, or powered your swing is at a given pitch. The "sim engine" needs to bring his stats back to the "tolerated" plus or minus .028 off of his .321 from 2005.

So... you hit a pop fly and lose the game- due to no fault of your own- but instead because of the vaunted "sim-engine" being priority over player skill.

This would also apply to AI players too.

Now- ask yourself this: Would the average sports gamer want such a system? Hell no. They wouldn't. Not in football- where they'd have to program-in drops so the strictly controlled statistics engine would take precedence over player skill. (example- 12 catches in one game for Hines Ward is a bit much- lets make him drop potential catches 13 and 14 regardless of how open he is.)

You see- think about what you are asking- You want a statistical "big brother" overseeing all your games that would try to equate everything to "last year's reality". Well, that's so subjective that its sad.

I guess that would make the following statistics for Payton Manning too low..
7 TD, 4 INT, 94.1 rtg, 1123 yards by week 5. That would probably fall below strict sim tolerances based on his previous year's performance.

But guess what?

That's his stats so far this year. These are stats that if generated by Madden before the season started- everyone would complain and say "The sim engine is soooo broken! if you pro-rate that- Mainning would only have about 23 TD passes this year!"

Funny how life works.

Just be careful what you ask for. I don't know if you'd really want it.

[Graphik]

If I said anything that SM said in that post, I would of been burned alive to the brink of death and revitalized to recieve more punishment for all eternity. I agree with some of his points but a few of them are a little farfetched.. He's basically preaching to the choir on some remarks. Only a true-blue, jock ridding Madden lover will disagree with everything he said.

On another note, EA, or should I say Tibiron is at a no-win position when that 360 version ships out. Despite their effords, that game will be placed under microscopes and scrutinized for every minute detail till the game is disected right before our eyes. And deservingly so, EA went out on a limb and secured the NFL for they're flagship title and all we have been seeing so far is smoke and mirrors. Nothing that justifies them spending half a billion dollars on a license.

[Graphik]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Wow.. helluva rant there. Look, I'd be the first to admit Madden should improve. But lets face it- to this day, no football game maker has ever promised some miracle "sim engine" that seems to have become the Holy Grail for some of the fans out there. That being said- your criticism of EA can apply to any sports game-maker out there. 2K hasn't done it, Midway sure hasn't done it, nor Tecmo, nor Acclaim- nobody. (some would argue that Front Page Sports football in the mid 90s did have a sim engine on PC, and to an extend I would agree- but many of us want good player control- not just a solid coach mode, and that's where FPS bowed out and didn't compete.) So nobody has done what you ask. Period. Not in baseball, basketball, hockey, or football. So keep that in mind before you give 60 minutes a call and you leave a voicemail that they inevitably ignore. Lets face it, compared to hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, government corruption, Al Queda, and famines in Africa, I don't think too many news networks would call your self-important criticism of EA that newsworthy. So you really need to come to grips with that right now. But i think you also really need to realize how artificial intelligence works. Look, you could program a game that simulated an NFL season and "reign-in" the stats of simmed games to equal last year's NFL stats - or close (given percentage tolerances that would be programmed in.) But how fun is that? Is it realistic to have Payton Manning throwing between 45 to 50 TD passes per year no matter what? Think of it this way- Lets say you program a baseball game with a strict "sim engine." Lets say you control A-Rod at a key at bat. Now A-Rod is batting .350 so far for your season, but the AI tolerance of how you can hit your next at-bat is .321 with a modifier of plus or minus .028. You are already at .350 for your season, so a "correction" is due- whereby A-Rod won't get a hit, no matter how well timed, placed, or powered your swing is at a given pitch. The "sim engine" needs to bring his stats back to the "tolerated" plus or minus .028 off of his .321 from 2005. So... you hit a pop fly and lose the game- due to no fault of your own- but instead because of the vaunted "sim-engine" being priority over player skill. This would also apply to AI players too. Now- ask yourself this: Would the average sports gamer want such a system? Hell no. They wouldn't. Not in football- where they'd have to program-in drops so the strictly controlled statistics engine would take precedence over player skill. (example- 12 catches in one game for Hines Ward is a bit much- lets make him drop potential catches 13 and 14 regardless of how open he is.) You see- think about what you are asking- You want a statistical "big brother" overseeing all your games that would try to equate everything to "last year's reality". Well, that's so subjective that its sad. I guess that would make the following statistics for Payton Manning too low.. 7 TD, 4 INT, 94.1 rtg, 1123 yards by week 5. That would probably fall below strict sim tolerances based on his previous year's performance. But guess what? That's his stats so far this year. These are stats that if generated by Madden before the season started- everyone would complain and say "The sim engine is soooo broken! if you pro-rate that- Mainning would only have about 23 TD passes this year!" Funny how life works. Just be careful what you ask for. I don't know if you'd really want it.

Meh...you just listed exactly the diffrence between EA and TT. One company rewards moreso the user and his joystick jokeying skills whereas the other forces the user to comply with the sim engine and player ratings. So all that ranting you just did has already been accomplished.

[quietcool72]

Quote: Originally Posted by Graphik

Meh...you just listed exactly the diffrence between EA and TT. One company rewards moreso the user and his joystick jokeying skills whereas the other forces the user to comply with the sim engine and player ratings. So all that ranting you just did has already been accomplished.

THAT'S CLASSIC!!!
2K had a "sim engine". That's the best one I heard all day.

I own it, I play it- and it has about the same "sim engine" that Madden does. How the hell can you say there's any kind of sim-engine with that kind of D-back play (or lack of).

I'd love to see your "Holy Grail" sliders that magically make NFL 2K5 a great simulation that does realistic stats.

Hell, Im gonna start selling 2K monogrammed underwear, many people who frequent this board would buy them.

[Graphik]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

THAT'S CLASSIC!!! 2K had a "sim engine". That's the best one I heard all day. I own it, I play it- and it has about the same "sim engine" that Madden does. How the hell can you say there's any kind of sim-engine with that kind of D-back play (or lack of). I'd love to see your "Holy Grail" sliders that magically make NFL 2K5 a great simulation that does realistic stats. Hell, Im gonna start selling 2K monogrammed underwear, many people who frequent this board would buy them.

Whatever dude. I did'nt say Madden or NFL 2K. I said EA and Take Two. Some of you guys are so quick to label ppl.... yall should take a look in the mirror. You might see the EA label branded on your butt.

[Ram209]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Wow.. helluva rant there. Look, I'd be the first to admit Madden should improve. But lets face it- to this day, no football game maker has ever promised some miracle "sim engine" that seems to have become the Holy Grail for some of the fans out there. That being said- your criticism of EA can apply to any sports game-maker out there. 2K hasn't done it, Midway sure hasn't done it, nor Tecmo, nor Acclaim- nobody. (some would argue that Front Page Sports football in the mid 90s did have a sim engine on PC, and to an extend I would agree- but many of us want good player control- not just a solid coach mode, and that's where FPS bowed out and didn't compete.) So nobody has done what you ask. Period. Not in baseball, basketball, hockey, or football. So keep that in mind before you give 60 minutes a call and you leave a voicemail that they inevitably ignore. Lets face it, compared to hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, government corruption, Al Queda, and famines in Africa, I don't think too many news networks would call your self-important criticism of EA that newsworthy. So you really need to come to grips with that right now. But i think you also really need to realize how artificial intelligence works. Look, you could program a game that simulated an NFL season and "reign-in" the stats of simmed games to equal last year's NFL stats - or close (given percentage tolerances that would be programmed in.) But how fun is that? Is it realistic to have Payton Manning throwing between 45 to 50 TD passes per year no matter what? Think of it this way- Lets say you program a baseball game with a strict "sim engine." Lets say you control A-Rod at a key at bat. Now A-Rod is batting .350 so far for your season, but the AI tolerance of how you can hit your next at-bat is .321 with a modifier of plus or minus .028. You are already at .350 for your season, so a "correction" is due- whereby A-Rod won't get a hit, no matter how well timed, placed, or powered your swing is at a given pitch. The "sim engine" needs to bring his stats back to the "tolerated" plus or minus .028 off of his .321 from 2005. So... you hit a pop fly and lose the game- due to no fault of your own- but instead because of the vaunted "sim-engine" being priority over player skill. This would also apply to AI players too. Now- ask yourself this: Would the average sports gamer want such a system? Hell no. They wouldn't. Not in football- where they'd have to program-in drops so the strictly controlled statistics engine would take precedence over player skill. (example- 12 catches in one game for Hines Ward is a bit much- lets make him drop potential catches 13 and 14 regardless of how open he is.) You see- think about what you are asking- You want a statistical "big brother" overseeing all your games that would try to equate everything to "last year's reality". Well, that's so subjective that its sad. I guess that would make the following statistics for Payton Manning too low.. 7 TD, 4 INT, 94.1 rtg, 1123 yards by week 5. That would probably fall below strict sim tolerances based on his previous year's performance. But guess what? That's his stats so far this year. These are stats that if generated by Madden before the season started- everyone would complain and say "The sim engine is soooo broken! if you pro-rate that- Mainning would only have about 23 TD passes this year!" Funny how life works. Just be careful what you ask for. I don't know if you'd really want it.

I think what he is asking for is EA to deliver on the promise it makes, 3x more animations, Built from the ground up, etc... Well lets just say they did add 3x more animations (which I highly doubt) then great now its equal to 2k5 LAST YEARS GAME ON CURRENT SYSTEMS. THats the problem here we are on "next gen" and we get this crap (as far as player interaction and animations) You can call me a 2k fanboy but regardless anyone that has seen the games MUST admit that 2k had 10x more animations and player interaction than madden. Why cant EA see this. I just want a simple tackle animation on every play not some over the top Blitz style big hit. I think MAdden 06 is by far the best game in the series I LOVE the cone. And the fact that lineman pull now when the play calls for it( A much bigger flaw than the one bangpow and yourself kept bringing up about 2k the qb spy not working) now if they could only add the player interaction and animations of 2k, Madden would be amazing for the next gen. But apparently that is eaiser said than done. I dont want Madden to fail its our only option so only a moron would want it to be a bad game an fail. But I HOPE HOPE HOPE these are really early builds we are seeing cause if thier not............. its going to be a long five years.

[quietcool72]

Quote: Originally Posted by Graphik

Whatever dude. I did'nt say Madden or NFL 2K. I said EA and Take Two. Some of you guys are so quick to label ppl.... yall should take a look in the mirror. You might see the EA label branded on your butt.

Hmmm...10.5 months since EA outbid the competition for the NFL license.

You'd think some of you would get over it by now- or realize that your own personal brand of board-whining on the Madden boards wouldn't make a difference on the grand scale of things.

I wish the NFL allowed for multiple licensees- but that was not the case.

It is what it is. Move on. Have some respect for the people who do come to these forums who don't quite feel like EA ran over their family dog with an SUV, or have moved on emotionally since.

Grow up.

[Graphik]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Hmmm...10.5 months since EA outbid the competition for the NFL license. You'd think some of you would get over it by now- or realize that your own personal brand of board-whining on the Madden boards wouldn't make a difference on the grand scale of things. I wish the NFL allowed for multiple licensees- but that was not the case. It is what it is. Move on. Have some respect for the people who do come to these forums who don't quite feel like EA ran over their family dog with an SUV, or have moved on emotionally since. Grow up.

What in the hell are you talking about man. Did you get all of that from my post? I feel like I'm talking to a remedial student. Why dont you do yourself a favor and dont respond to my post since you feel I'm such a "troll" as you once called me.

Forreal though man, you seem to be tryna spark some type of debate with me that I'm not even tryna get into. I think you're the one that has the growing up to do.