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360 Madden, Whats features have been confirmed?

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Old 05-14-2006, 02:37 AM   #17
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Re: 360 Madden, Whats features have been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spectralfan
Challenges are artificial you know. You make it sound like challenges allow you to correct mistakes by the cpu. In reality, challenges involve deliberately inserted bad calls so that the user may use his challenges. It's just an illusion. The AI does not actually realize on the challenge that it made a mistake. That's why I don't like challenges in video games because they involve deliberate bad calls. Now, I've seen the bad calls you refer to in Madden 360, especially with QB fumbles but I think it's a bug and thus even with challenges it would not have been corrected. The only way it would have is if EA left the deliberate bad calls but without the challenges. But if the AI was calling these fumbles because it thought they were then even challenges would not have corrected that.
That's semantics though. EA programming in errors as you speak of is actually realistic because errors happen by refs in real life so by adding them in yes it is intentional but that isn't the point, the point is not having them in is unrealistic and the intentional aspect means very little. The only difference is the game does it intentionally to simulate reality. Why should the intention of the call by a digital ref make any difference?

By your rationale it's more realistic to have 100% perfect calls in videogames than it is to have a programming method which you don't like because it involves coding intentional errors. By having bad call possibilities you are right that it does cause the cpu to intentionally make mistakes but if done correctly, makes the game more realistic because you as a user must watch for and potentally challenge bad calls. Just like in the real NFL.

In real life the refs make mistakes because they are human, in the game coding in mistakes doesn't make the game more "sinister" because the digital refs have to intentionally make bad calls. If it bothers you so much just pretend the little digital guys making the bad calls honestly made a mistake, and he wasn't programmed to make that bad call.

And again i'll bring up my other past analogy. EA could also program Madden so that QB's completed every pass but instead they program the QB's to sometimes overthrow or underthrow and passes therefor are incomplete. Do you think that it is unrealistic that your QB you're controlling intentionally overthrows or underthrows? No quite the contrary, I'll bet if EA made the QB's perfect and every QB in the game went 34 for 34 and etc then there would be utter outrage as to just how unrealistic that is.
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:06 AM   #18
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Re: 360 Madden, Whats features have been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spectralfan
Challenges are artificial you know. You make it sound like challenges allow you to correct mistakes by the cpu. In reality, challenges involve deliberately inserted bad calls so that the user may use his challenges. It's just an illusion. The AI does not actually realize on the challenge that it made a mistake. That's why I don't like challenges in video games because they involve deliberate bad calls. Now, I've seen the bad calls you refer to in Madden 360, especially with QB fumbles but I think it's a bug and thus even with challenges it would not have been corrected. The only way it would have is if EA left the deliberate bad calls but without the challenges. But if the AI was calling these fumbles because it thought they were then even challenges would not have corrected that.
I not sure about how games are coded, but to me, it add realism to the game. Even if the game was program to not make any bad calls, my friends would still complain when they fumble. Stating that their knee hit the ground first. Which may be true, because the graphics or angle made it look that way.
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Old 05-14-2006, 10:56 AM   #19
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Re: 360 Madden, Whats features have been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
Why should the intention of the call by a digital ref make any difference?
Because in a video game, even if it's a blatant bad call on the replay, if the AI made a true bad call (ie not intentional) it still wil not be reverse. For instance, the person who mentionned challenges sounded like challenges could correct the AI's mistakes. At least that's how I perceived it. THat simly does not happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
By your rationale it's more realistic to have 100% perfect calls in videogames than it is to have a programming method which you don't like because it involves coding intentional errors.
I never said anything about realism. I was merely pointing out that challenges in games do not actually allow you to correct AI mistakes but rather introduces intentional bad calls thus even if you know the call was bad and it's clear on the replay the AI will not reverse it unless it was an intentional bad call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
By having bad call possibilities you are right that it does cause the cpu to intentionally make mistakes but if done correctly, makes the game more realistic because you as a user must watch for and potentally challenge bad calls. Just like in the real NFL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
In real life the refs make mistakes because they are human, in the game coding in mistakes doesn't make the game more "sinister" because the digital refs have to intentionally make bad calls.
Wow, sinister! Ok I gues I had it kind of coming when I said "That's why I don't like challenges in videogames". Seriously though it's more that I don't like bad calls period, whether in games or not. Challenges were introduced in the NFL BECAUSE thes refs are human and make mistakes. It is meant to correct an undesirable and otherwise unremovable aspect of the game. In games, you have to reintroduce that element in order to be able to allow the user to remove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
If it bothers you so much just pretend the little digital guys making the bad calls honestly made a mistake, and he wasn't programmed to make that bad call.
Gee. You really took offense with what I said. It doesn't bother me "so much". There is one problem with your suggestion though: When the AI makes a genuine mistake, NO MATTER HOW BLATANT ON THE REPLAY, challenges will not correct it. But some times, an intentional bad call that is barele even debatable on the replay gets overturned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ODogg
And again i'll bring up my other past analogy. EA could also program Madden so that QB's completed every pass but instead they program the QB's to sometimes overthrow or underthrow and passes therefor are incomplete. Do you think that it is unrealistic that your QB you're controlling intentionally overthrows or underthrows? No quite the contrary, I'll bet if EA made the QB's perfect and every QB in the game went 34 for 34 and etc then there would be utter outrage as to just how unrealistic that is.
There is a significant difference though. When it comes to player performances, everything is calculated on probabilities based on player ratings, current situation such as throwing off the back foot, etc. so the result is not as arbitrary in nature as the "Time for a bad call" aspect that comes with challenges. I see your general idea though. As far as realism is concerned, I agree with you guys, except for the part where the actual bad calls cannot be reversed, just the intentional ones. But I'm sure one of you will point out that sometimes bad calls are not overturned even when it's fairly clear on the replay and that refs can make mistakes even on challenges so yeah as far as realism goes it is better to have them.
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Old 05-14-2006, 10:59 AM   #20
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Re: 360 Madden, Whats features have been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by concealed
I not sure about how games are coded, but to me, it add realism to the game. Even if the game was program to not make any bad calls, my friends would still complain when they fumble. Stating that their knee hit the ground first. Which may be true, because the graphics or angle made it look that way.
That was my point to begin with. Your initial post gave me the impression that you thought challenges allow you to correct mistakes by the AI, which in reality it doesn't, unless the mistake was intentional. It's just frustrating to no end to see blatant bad calls that do not get overturned because they were genuine mistakes/glitches by the AI's calling.
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