Everyone Chime in - Not a Whine Thread

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by EWRMETS

Not to mention that the players in APF move so ridiculously stiff

Come on guys, this is NOT a comparison of the 2 games thread. I made mention to AP2K8 as a point of reference, not to compare the games in general.

YES AP2K8 has its own problems, WE KNOW THIS. We KNOW YOU KNOW this. but thats NOT what this thread is about.

Its about discussing improving ALL football games...

[EWRMETS]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

Come on guys, this is NOT a comparison of the 2 games thread. I made mention to AP2K8 as a point of reference, not to compare the games in general. YES AP2K8 has its own problems, WE KNOW THIS. We KNOW YOU KNOW this. but thats NOT what this thread is about. Its about discussing improving ALL football games...

I understand but when there's already threads dealing with this and you have argued with mods in 2k threads about anyone who criticized that game, I find it hard to believe you don't have an agenda.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I don't know, I don't even have the game , yet, so, it's not for me to praise it or bitch and moan about it. I'm talking to myself on this note, not to anyone else. When it's in this consumers hand, than I have every right to voice my thumbs up or thumbs down. I do have NCAA and I noticed with working with different slider sets , the turnovers are no longer an issue. There is one guy over in the NCAA forums that I think may be onto something that I haven't explored , yet. The coach's offensive and defensive aggression percentages were at 100% in NCAA. He lowered each offensive and defensive to 0% and witnessed fewer turnovers.

I thought about this too and mentioned it in another thread. Its not the INT slider thats the problem, its the awareness or Agression or whatever attribute that decides when the AI goes after the ball. To me having to adjust that IN ANY GAME is a somewhat bandaid to the real problem. I think they make it so agressive because the WR's are able to go after the ball before their route is run. Its my opinion through observation so its not gospel, I am just trying to get to the bottom of it to make the game BETTER.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by EWRMETS

I understand but when there's already threads dealing with this and you have argued with mods in 2k threads about anyone who criticized that game, I find it hard to believe you don't have an agenda.

Believe what you want man. I have said good and bad things about BOTH games. So if you gonna judge a person on posts, be sure to judge him on ALL their posts, dont cherry pick.

You KNOW what this thread is about and I made it quite clear what its about, so why are you hijacking it ?

[LBzrule]

I agree with Tomb. Now I also will say the DB A.I in 2k needs some work but primarily animation work, namely to let you have more control over it instead of making the DB go away from the ball. I think both games need some fundamentals work especially with zone coverage. The one thing I hate with cover 3 zone coverage in both games is that after a few yards the DB just turns his back to the WR and QB and starts running. How can you know where the hell the WR is when you have your back turned and are just running up the field blindly? Both games need work in that department. But the thing that 2k does is that if a guy is out of place and beaten then you just have to accept it. He cannot get back over on some other route and make a play and that's pretty realistic. The thing that EA has done is if the CB is out of place and not even looking he can still get back on some other route that he should have no clue is even being ran in that area. That makes it feel like CHEATING instead of authentic DB A.I. Here is a classic example. Go to the bills playbook and call Singleback Tight Slots Drag Cross Ups Flipped.

Motion the right slot over to the left and give him a streak. Be sure the D is in cover 3. Now watch the CB. He's going to take off after the streak. You have a wheel/rail route the is going to come behind that, but it's going to be about 10to 15 yards behind it. That CB that chases the streak he never looks back at the wheel/rail route but if you throw it to the WR running that route, that CB will be there to either defend it or even intercept it. Yeah 2k's DB A.I is bad, but at least when a guy is beat he's beat and if a coverage is beaten it is beaten. But here they get the guys to cheat because people complained so much about certain routes. There is no way that CB should even be away of this route if he's running full stride with the streak. But like I said if you think you are going to dump it behind that CB chasing the streak you are mistaken. But alas, just go deep with a fast WR and you should get it. But it's just stupid for him to come back 15 yards to defend a route that is wide open.

I can get pass it and still enjoy the game, but it is not where it needs to be. If a guy is beat then he is beat. But because everyone complained about certain routes then now nobody can get beat per se.

[mr_president]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

This is not a complaint thread. Its a observation thread and hopefully we all can debate it and get some things cleared about Madden in general. This years DB AI is to me magnifying a fundamental problem with Madden that I think needs to be seriously looked at and discussed OPENLY with out Bitching to the devs and madden community in general. That fundamental problem is what I will call "Precognition football." Its a problem on both sides of the game, Offense and Defense and I THINK its why so much "tweaking" has to be done with the DB AI. I want everyone to go into practice mode and pick any passing play running any route. Lets examine a post route: You will note that if you throw the ball to the WR at ANY point in the route, even before the initial cut the WR will turn to try and catch the ball. This is NOT possible in real life, because the WR has NO way of knowing the QB has thrown the ball while he is running up field with his back to the QB. This is ONLY possible where its been discussed in the huddle or a play is designed where the WR KNOWS the QB is gonna throw the ball before he makes his cut. A POST route is NOT one of those kinda routes. This creates problems in these video games because it leaves alot of seams open that are under real world circumstances NOT there because NO ONE has precognition that the QB has thrown the ball to him before he has run his route. IMO I THINK this is why the DB AI is made to be SO REACTIVE to the ball as soon as its in the air to try and Bandaid this fundamental problem with Madden. I will bring up AP2K8 as a point of reference. Go to practice mode in that game and run a passing play. Again lets use a post route as an example. If you throw the ball to the WR before he makes his cut, he aint gonna even turn around, he is gonna continue running his route and the ball is gonna land somewhere way behind the WR. The only route In Ap2K8 where the WR will look for the ball as soon as you pass is the Streak. It makes sense for that route to be that way...THERE ARE NO CUTS in a streak. You throw it when you see/think the WR is open. HOWEVER even with that route there should be a point in the route where the WR shows visually that he thinks he is open, thus letting you the QB the know that he IS looking for the ball and its ok to be thrown now. This is I think the fundamental difference between the 2 games and why some hate one or the other. In 2K games the DB AI does NOT have to be psychic to play D. The pasing game is more based on timing anda route actually being OPEN in order to make a play. So if the D is in the right place when the ball is thrown they WILL make a play on the ball without having to resort to having to leap/warp/ to defend passes the WR has NO EARTHLY business looking to catch at that point in the route anyhow. I have seen men in Madden covering in man to man come off their man and intercept balls that in real life could NOT have been intercepted because the DB would not have seen the ball thrown to pick it off. How could he when his back is to the ball and he is chasing the man he is suppose to be covering ? Please, this is not a bitch and moan thread. How do yall feel about this issue and what do you think can/should be done about it ?

i haven't played 08 yet.....

"precog football"(i used to call them psychic db's) has plagued this series for years, especially with db'S. it is one of the problems that i have with the game. as soon as the ball leaves the QB's hand the db's, no matter if they are looking or not would know it and react. it makes making some plays on offense almost impossible.....it's ashame to see it still there.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I agree with Tomb. Now I also will say the DB A.I in 2k needs some work but primarily animation work, namely to let you have more control over it instead of making the DB go away from the ball. I think both games need some fundamentals work especially with zone coverage. The one thing I hate with cover 3 zone coverage in both games is that after a few yards the DB just turns his back to the WR and QB and starts running. How can you know where the hell the WR is when you have your back turned and are just running up the field blindly? Both games need work in that department. But the thing that 2k does is that if a guy is out of place and beaten then you just have to accept it. He cannot get back over on some other route and make a play and that's pretty realistic. The thing that EA has done is if the CB is out of place and not even looking he can still get back on some other route that he should have no clue is even being ran in that area. That makes it feel like CHEATING instead of authentic DB A.I. Here is a classic example. Go to the bills playbook and call Singleback Tight Slots Drag Cross Ups Flipped. Motion the right slot over to the left and give him a streak. Be sure the D is in cover 3. Now watch the CB. He's going to take off after the streak. You have a wheel/rail route the is going to come behind that, but it's going to be about 10to 15 yards behind it. That CB that chases the streak he never looks back at the wheel/rail route but if you throw it to the WR running that route, that CB will be there to either defend it or even intercept it. Yeah 2k's DB A.I is bad, but at least when a guy is beat he's beat and if a coverage is beaten it is beaten. But here they get the guys to cheat because people complained so much about certain routes. There is no way that CB should even be away of this route if he's running full stride with the streak. But like I said if you think you are going to dump it behind that CB chasing the streak you are mistaken. But alas, just go deep with a fast WR and you should get it. But it's just stupid for him to come back 15 yards to defend a route that is wide open. I can get pass it and still enjoy the game, but it is not where it needs to be. If a guy is beat then he is beat. But because everyone complained about certain routes then now nobody can get beat per se.

EXACTLY....I agree with EVERYTHING you said. This needs to be discussed with BOTH devs and all of us players to improve on this so we can finally move on to innovation of the games instead of dealing with issues that have been problems for years.

[LoWw]

Great post LB!!