Back to Our Roots!

[blackngoldfan]

Madden should be a true "Football Simulator". As gamers, I would assume that a lot of you guys have tried to play a "Flight Simulator"? Back in the day, I was into the "Top Gun" movies so I would go to the local corner store or arcade and spend all of my little change on "Afterburner". I thought I was pretty good at flying games UNTIL I played a flight simulator. They are HARD AS (BEEP)!! You really need to know what you're doing just to get off the ground. After that, I decided that the "ARCADE" was for me. I wish EA Sports would take that route and and finally live up to it's "If it's in the game, it's in the game" slogan.

[bad_philanthropy]

Rashad19's post should be a must read for Peter Moore and all football developers.

We have seen some evidence of EA dividing their brand to different audiences with Head Coach, but maybe what EA truly needs to do instead of integrating the two targeted customers bases into one game like Madden they should have a more casual football game and a more robust higher priced simulation game. Keep the Madden name for the more casual game since the brand alone sells a ton of copies and call the simulation one whatever.

I guarantee there is a large enough market for a hardcore football sim to be wildly successful, sim gaming as a whole is as big as it has ever been, considering the successes of some of the hardcore racing sims out there, and how well received NHL and FIFA have sold and been received since their move towards more of a sim-type game. Not to mention EA's own MVP Baseball series, 2k's basketball games, and MLB 08. If those can be hugely successful as sim games can you imagine the most popular sport in the U.S.?

I don't think anyone here is asking for a ridiculously complicated and exact representation of the sport, just something more along the lines of the titles I previously listed, and like the original poster noted, a game that represents the fundamentals properly and teaches football.

I for one would love to see what a developer could do if their hands weren't so tied by trying to integrate two customer bases with opposing demands into one product.

One last thing, I recently read Gamespot's history of football gaming series and was reminded of the Front Page sports series, the '95 version was so ahead of its time it was ridiculous (Oddly enough the studio that made the game also made Starsiege Tribes which was also way ahead of its time) and an example of what can be achieved with the express intent of making a sim,

If you're not familiar with the Front Page Football series be sure to read this. I would love to see a sports game in this day and age that dares to be this ambitious.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6130897/p-16.html

[Nza]

There is a lot of right in this thread, but the fact remains EA seem more interested in making Madden football, not NFL football. The NFL is a vessel used to promote the game and attach it to something that is very popular, and little more. Madden is as much a tangent to the NFL than what the XFL or AFL were/are, really. EA are creating their own brand of football, except its virtual, where limitations don't apply, and by partnering with the NFL they take care of most of the work (i.e. promotion). The fact is EA have no incentive to create a true NFL replication, they are more interested in adhering to their customer base and it seems to be working ok so far for them as a company.

The only way this will ever change is if the customer base shifts, or if the NFL decide they want a proper video game attached to their name.

[FlyingFinn]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I agree with everything you said except for your notion of getting back to the roots. The fundamental assumption is the game in its current state is radically separated from its roots. I would contend that it is not and that the way the game is now is the way it has always been and probably much worse. The Madden game has never been concerned with realistic QB drops. Its blocking scheme was taken straight out of Tecmo Bowl, which is why you get the same mechanics of stick blocking or you get a majority of defenders bowling over offensive linemen and into the backfield for the play and vice versa, Olinemen just flattenting Dlinemen and the back is gone for the TD. Just like Tecmo Bowl the long ball has always been an infatuation. Special teams used to be much worse than they are now. There is a video on youtube that shows some things that would drive us wild, the thing is though I did it as a kid and had fun doing so. As a kid when I played my cousin, dropping back 20 yards was the norm. I have little cousins now who do the same thing and they have not played online and have not seen anyone else play. So they haven't copied the behavior. I think if we all go back to our adolescent days of playing these games, we will see all the stuff that we currently hate as a part of our own behavior of playing these games. And if not ours, someone that we played the game with. Here is the kicker. You say return to the roots. I would contend that the game hasn't moved far enough away from its roots and that's the reason why the game is the way it is right now. It is a very conservative game that has kept the same formula that it began with. Per the argument that uses the online crowd and the tournament players as a scapegoat for the reason why the game is bad. I would say their play style might be annoying, but a play style cannot be carried out unless there is a game that allows that play style to be carried out. And when you look at this game all of the current tricks have always been there even before Tiburon came on board, before Visual Concepts came on board, before Trip Hawkins little company came on board all of this stuff was there (on the Hawkins comment I am referring to a game play that was already in the air before Madden was made - football games have always been about fun first. The very first Tecmo Bowl was an arcade game that was composed of 2 teams). The 20 yard drop backs, the sticky blocking, instant blitzes, 3 play offenses that will have you in tears. It's always been there. In that regard madden mimics its predecessor, the timeless classic Tecmo Bowl. Developers have their patterns and processes of how they go about doing these games and the games that have come out every year shows me that these patterns and processes have not changed and most likely will not change, so we might as well accept what is, with more polish and small incremental upgrades or forget it.

Post of the year! This post is exactly how I feel. Unfortunately Madden is so "Root Bound" we are stuck playing a style of football that was the only thing possible 20 years ago...

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashad19

LBzrule..that was an excellent post! You touch on some very critical points. I digest the fact that little kids pop the game in and play it in a manner that is unrealistic because in essence they are just being kids. What baffles me is when I watch Madden tournaments on TV or go online grown men come into head 2 head matches with 3 gimmich plays on offense and a pocket full of nano blitzes on defense. What is the rationale behind that? 20 years into this game and we have producers/developers unable to capture the fundamental gameplay of football? I cannot accept that and will no longer accept that. It's time for EA/Tiburon to step up to the plate and make a GREAT game that is accurate and acceptable to carry the NFL license. Or explain to us why in 2008 do we not have a QB pocket,refs,chain gangs,wrap up tackles, teams that play like themselves,etc..etc...These are the questions that should be asked when fans of the community have the opportunity to test beta versions of the game. At this point they should be making them say "We can't make that happen because the engine can't handle it" or "we simply have not figured out a way how to capture it". By making them accountable for their actions the truth will come to light.

I agree it is unacceptable. But everything that we are asking is for them to 1) Move away from their roots, by 2) changing their processes and the formula. I'm not sure they are gonna be willing to do that. This is why having options was so great. Diversity of roots, processes and formulas = gaming fulfillment for everyone. But nothing we can do about that at this point.

[Rashad19]

The only way this will ever change is if the customer base shifts, or if the NFL decide they want a proper video game attached to their name.


So let me get this straight? The majority of Madden's customer base(casual gamer) would not purchase this game if more realistic and sim style animations and features were added? I really don't think they would notice the difference myself. They would play the game anyway because it would be the only NFL experience available to them.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashad19

So let me get this straight? The majority of Madden's customer base(casual gamer) would not purchase this game if more realistic and sim style animations and features were added? I really don't think they would notice the difference myself. They would play the game anyway because it would be the only NFL experience available to them.

Yes, the casual crowd would purchase the game anyway. But then you gotta think of this: if this strategy has worked for EA for years, why would they go away from it? Yes, we'd like for EA to cater more to the "Hardcore" gamer (I hate that label lol), but for EA and just about any other business, it's all about increasing profit. They wouldn't take the chance of alienating their largest fanbase.

But in the essence of things, I'm not so sure if the problem with lack of realism in EA's games is a pure product of catering to the casual gamer. At times, I feel EA just doesn't get it. I don't see how they (developers & producers) can be satisfied with the state of Madden when you compare that to more superior football games as much as 5 years old.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashad19

The only way this will ever change is if the customer base shifts, or if the NFL decide they want a proper video game attached to their name. So let me get this straight? The majority of Madden's customer base(casual gamer) would not purchase this game if more realistic and sim style animations and features were added? I really don't think they would notice the difference myself. They would play the game anyway because it would be the only NFL experience available to them.

I agree they would still buy it. But what I'm getting at is, we are asking EA to change their entire process of doing what they do and that's where the sticking point is. The consumer isn't the issue. We are asking them to put in X amount of work and change things drastically from one year to the next and the marketing team and executives have a different question. You can best believe one of their questions is, is all that extra work going to move more units? It's a calculation on risk and return. Secondly and I would say never forget this, Tecmo Bowl is the formula for just about every game that was made. Tecmo Bowls formula = Fun First, everything else is secondary. It wasn't a very realistic game but it was fun for the time. That's the reason why they are marketing the things that they are marketing in the weekly gamestop updates. I look at it and shrug my shoulders. I won't call it useless, but I understand what they are doing. Even with the Gillette stadium trailer look at what they are doing. End of the trailer shows Randy Moss doing the Soljah Boy. With that TD celebration alone they've already sold over 2 mil units LOL.