Serious Talk: Pocket passing

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by RyanLeaf16

Zihin has proven that a pocket exists in Madden 08. Like you said, when someone keeps dropping back, that pocket breaks down. When you roll left or right, the pocket breaks down. Don't leave the pocket. Simple as that.

Where is this proof? OTs have to get some depth for there to be a pocket. DEs have to be able to rush up field for there to be a pocket. Neither of these things happen. The OT takes a step back and the DE get's suctioned into him.

Even if the "pocket" breaks down when you drop back too far, which I haven't seen, it's not as simple as don't leave the pocket. You can't force your opponent to stay in the pocket. And there are times you want to escape the pocket, but you want it to be realistic. You don't want to be allowed to just moonwalk to the side because the DE is glued to the OT.

Lastly, it's bigger than just a pocket. It's the way the OL & DL interact. No pocket is just one of the results of bad interaction.

[RGiles36]

Here's a video I came across yesterday posted in the EA forums. It's a video of Madden 06 and it showcases a pocket forming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQMf7HRJUA& feature=related

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Here's a video I came across yesterday posted in the EA forums. It's a video of Madden 06 and it showcases a pocket forming. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQMf7HRJUA& feature=related

I did notice a few plays where the OT got a bit of depth. But this is why I say it's bigger than just a pocket. EA could simply change the depth OTs get and it will create the SHAPE of a pocket. But the DE is still glued to the OT. He can't keep contain, which is a key element to a pocket.

If you followed Vick, you may remember how defenses would try to stop him. Keep him in the pocket. That's done by DE getting up field to contain(or with a soft rush). If Vick was going to escape the pocket, it had to be by stepping up or by bellying very deep around the DE. This element has always been missing from Madden where you are able to moonwalk by the DE who's glued to the OT.

This psuedo pocket also eliminates the speed rush. They have to turn guys like Dwight Freeney into exceptional power rushers because there's no speed rush in the game. Freeney doesn't get stuck to DEs in real life. He hand fights, stays low and keeps bigger guys from getting their hands on him. This element has also been missing from Madden.

But yes, I did see the curved formation in front of the QB in that vid.

[seanmac]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I did notice a few plays where the OT got a bit of depth. But this is why I say it's bigger than just a pocket. EA could simply change the depth OTs get and it will create the SHAPE of a pocket. But the DE is still glued to the OT. He can't keep contain, which is a key element to a pocket. If you followed Vick, you may remember how defenses would try to stop him. Keep him in the pocket. That's done by DE getting up field to contain(or with a soft rush). If Vick was going to escape the pocket, it had to be by stepping up or by bellying very deep around the DE. This element has always been missing from Madden where you are able to moonwalk by the DE who's glued to the OT. This psuedo pocket also eliminates the speed rush. They have to turn guys like Dwight Freeney into exceptional power rushers because there's no speed rush in the game. Freeney doesn't get stuck to DEs in real life. He hand fights, stays low and keeps bigger guys from getting their hands on him. This element has also been missing from Madden. But yes, I did see the curved formation in front of the QB in that vid.

Bingo. You can artificially create a pocket as the defender by splitting your DE very wide and taking him straight up the field- the OL will mirror him and you'll get one side of the pocket. But if you just leave it alone, the OL will suck in the DE, giving you a flat pocket where the OL is basically just 1-2 yards behind the line. Not coincidentally, most of the pressure you get in Madden is up the middle as DTs or LBs beat the guards in 1-on-1 interactions. In the NFL you almost invariably get fast pressure off the edge with DTs who can clean up after a quarterback is flushed inside, but in Madden you get essentially the reverse.

Until the OL/DL is fixed, you're going to have a bad pocket. The key is making the interactions interesting. In 2K, for instance, defensive line moves actually work, and you can set up a lineman from play to play by speed rushing one down, then faking out and using a club to get inside on the next, then spinning on the next, etc, etc. In Madden, you're simply held up until you come unglued. That's not to say there's no suction blocking in 2K, but it's much less apparent.

[Alliball]

Quote: Originally Posted by seanmac

The editorializing is completely unnecessary (you'll see what I mean), but this clip gives you a very good feel for the differences in how the pocket forms and how the quarterback moves within it in 2K versus the EA model (in this case NCAA). There's really no comparison. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mxAsz_xbB0s

Yeah, no bias at all in that video.

[seanmac]

Quote: Originally Posted by Alliball

Yeah, no bias at all in that video.

No, the video is absolutely biased. But if you ignore it and just concentrate on what it is showing- the WR route running, the QB drops, etc, etc, you should be able to make an independent value judgment. It's not like one game was being shown from a sexy replay angle and the other was from a gameplay angle.

Something can be biased and still be right, you know.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I did notice a few plays where the OT got a bit of depth. But this is why I say it's bigger than just a pocket. EA could simply change the depth OTs get and it will create the SHAPE of a pocket. But the DE is still glued to the OT. He can't keep contain, which is a key element to a pocket. If you followed Vick, you may remember how defenses would try to stop him. Keep him in the pocket. That's done by DE getting up field to contain(or with a soft rush). If Vick was going to escape the pocket, it had to be by stepping up or by bellying very deep around the DE. This element has always been missing from Madden where you are able to moonwalk by the DE who's glued to the OT. This psuedo pocket also eliminates the speed rush. They have to turn guys like Dwight Freeney into exceptional power rushers because there's no speed rush in the game. Freeney doesn't get stuck to DEs in real life. He hand fights, stays low and keeps bigger guys from getting their hands on him. This element has also been missing from Madden. But yes, I did see the curved formation in front of the QB in that vid.

Well, I'm not sure how effective the pocket was or how it worked in-game b/c I never owned Madden 2006. I just figured that since alot of us are quick to mention the complete lack of pocket over the years, that it would only be fair to show a vid where a makeshift pocket did form lol.

[SageInfinite]

Lm

Quote: Originally Posted by seanmac

The editorializing is completely unnecessary (you'll see what I mean), but this clip gives you a very good feel for the differences in how the pocket forms and how the quarterback moves within it in 2K versus the EA model (in this case NCAA). There's really no comparison. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mxAsz_xbB0s

Lmao @ that video. I remember when that came out. It just goes to show you how much EA is lacking when it comes to player interaction and animations. The video is totally biased, but the footage is the truth. You wouldn't think the two games were even in the same generation or for the same system.