WR Pass Route/Defense Thread

[capp34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

A insde/outside option for madden would be a nice step aswell. As it is now we either play straight up, loose coverage or bump n run. We need the option to play inside or outside. Play inside to take away the slants/curls/ins or outside to take away fade/outs/flats. But for the bigger picture yea we need the DB logic fixed. BUT I think a bigger issue is the QB feet plant issue. There should be postives for setting your feet and negatives for throwing on the run and which side of the body throwing from. Combined with WHO is throwing the ball.

Right on point great Ideas I do miss the inside outside option from ps2.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashad19

DSpezzano you are exactly right with your comments about the basic techniques DB's should be playing according to play call. I started a thread awhile back which was entitled "Back to our Roots" which touched on DB/WR interaction. Being a former college receiver I am going to throw my two cents in on this topic as well. In order for us to see a true simulation passing attack on Madden numerous things are going to have to happen defensively and offensively. OL/DL interaction is going to have to be realistic(pocket must form, DL should get a push up front, and get their hands up when they don't reach the QB). Defensive backs are going to have to play outside/inside techniques, bail coverage/press coverage, and cover 2 techniques!! In man the DB's should be in the WR's hip pocket or trail position and in zone coverage DB's/LB's should be funneling each WR to the next defensive guy all while maintaing zone integrity!! Now with all that being said how do NFL Offensive Coordinators look to combat all these defensive techniques and schemes week in and week out? I have the answer right here for you guys and it's called (drumroll please)........MATCHUPS!!! Only certain WR/QB combos have the physical tools and coverage recognition abilities to be able to dissect a defense if the QB is allowed time to get the ball off. Three teams that come to mind are the Colts,Benglas, and Patriots!! They have smart QB's and WR's which allows them to pass the ball effectively throughout the course of a season. These teams should hav more success completing passes on specific routes that have been adjusted on the fly from the original call then lets say the San Francisco 49ers!! Now some situations are cut and dry!! For instance if a WR should be running a deep post route and the QB takes two steps and fires the ball it should either fall helplessly to the ground or be intercepted because the WR would have never seen the ball. The success of one's passing game is very dependent on matchups and calling the right play at the right time to exploit a disadvantage. A prime example is Plaxico Burresse's performance against Green Bay when Al Harris(a lockdown corner) was forced to man up on a bigger/stronger receiver all day. The Pack refused to go into any type of zone coverage and as a result Al got worked all day and the Giants ended up winning the game!! Or calling a well timed HB screen when you catch the defense in all out blitz like the Eagles did when they beat the Skins on a screen to Westbrook. Madden must allow elite receivers to play as such and force defense's to account for them through play calling, getting the right personnel in the right places, and most importantly getting pressure on the QB to disrupt the timing of the passing attack.

Co-sign. As of now though not perfect AP2K8 is the best at giving us a taste of this. If the Madden guys can get the foundation for this started in this years game or next, it would go a long way in making Madden the best football game ever.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

A insde/outside option for madden would be a nice step aswell. As it is now we either play straight up, loose coverage or bump n run. We need the option to play inside or outside. Play inside to take away the slants/curls/ins or outside to take away fade/outs/flats. But for the bigger picture yea we need the DB logic fixed. BUT I think a bigger issue is the QB feet plant issue. There should be postives for setting your feet and negatives for throwing on the run and which side of the body throwing from. Combined with WHO is throwing the ball.

I think Ap2k8 has implemented a good QB feet plant system. If the Madden guys can build upon it I would be happy with it.

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I think Ap2k8 has implemented a good QB feet plant system. If the Madden guys can build upon it I would be happy with it.

agreed. As it is now there is nothing to deter people from throwing on the run. Which brings problems.

[JohnDoe8865]

I know it's been said but the QB Accuracy ratings should be dropped when throwing on the run, obviously some more than others. Also the accuracy should drop if you drop back past 7-10 yards.

[Danimal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashad19

DSpezzano you are exactly right with your comments about the basic techniques DB's should be playing according to play call. I started a thread awhile back which was entitled "Back to our Roots" which touched on DB/WR interaction. Being a former college receiver I am going to throw my two cents in on this topic as well. In order for us to see a true simulation passing attack on Madden numerous things are going to have to happen defensively and offensively. OL/DL interaction is going to have to be realistic(pocket must form, DL should get a push up front, and get their hands up when they don't reach the QB). Defensive backs are going to have to play outside/inside techniques, bail coverage/press coverage, and cover 2 techniques!! In man the DB's should be in the WR's hip pocket or trail position and in zone coverage DB's/LB's should be funneling each WR to the next defensive guy all while maintaing zone integrity!! Now with all that being said how do NFL Offensive Coordinators look to combat all these defensive techniques and schemes week in and week out? I have the answer right here for you guys and it's called (drumroll please)........MATCHUPS!!! Only certain WR/QB combos have the physical tools and coverage recognition abilities to be able to dissect a defense if the QB is allowed time to get the ball off. Three teams that come to mind are the Colts,Benglas, and Patriots!! They have smart QB's and WR's which allows them to pass the ball effectively throughout the course of a season. These teams should hav more success completing passes on specific routes that have been adjusted on the fly from the original call then lets say the San Francisco 49ers!! Now some situations are cut and dry!! For instance if a WR should be running a deep post route and the QB takes two steps and fires the ball it should either fall helplessly to the ground or be intercepted because the WR would have never seen the ball. The success of one's passing game is very dependent on matchups and calling the right play at the right time to exploit a disadvantage. A prime example is Plaxico Burresse's performance against Green Bay when Al Harris(a lockdown corner) was forced to man up on a bigger/stronger receiver all day. The Pack refused to go into any type of zone coverage and as a result Al got worked all day and the Giants ended up winning the game!! Or calling a well timed HB screen when you catch the defense in all out blitz like the Eagles did when they beat the Skins on a screen to Westbrook. Madden must allow elite receivers to play as such and force defense's to account for them through play calling, getting the right personnel in the right places, and most importantly getting pressure on the QB to disrupt the timing of the passing attack.

Great post. I gotta say the more I think about this and I went back and played some APF last night I think that the main difference between the games is that APF does a good job with the animations, a decent job with technique.

Their zone technique is just great, they pass off receivers and protect their zones quite well. Some of their man stuff is good as well. However their DB AI is not perfect either it just looks a whole lot better. In fact and I know I will get a little toasty for this, I think it is easier to compelte a pass in APF but it just looks realistic when you do it.

Maybe that's all it will take is better animations and brining in a secondary coach for a day in the mo-cap studio. There is no doubt that creating a competent AI in regards to secondary play when so much of the actual position is about technique and instinct.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

Thanks LB !

Man I just got home really late. I can capture it in a few mins though. Hopefully the quality will be good.

[Ian_Cummings]

Wow, another great thread.

I think every post you guys have written so far is pretty much spot on. There is a ton of room for us to grow in terms of WR / DB interaction, DB coverage, and WR route running.

I also am totally down with this idea:
"Would it not be prudent to give some sort of basic knowledge of whats going on in the owners manual for the game or in game practice tutorials."

Here's where the design call comes into play, and that is where you say if you throw to a receiver in the first leg of his route, he should not see it coming and not be able to catch it. This is an easy change, but this is a big and scary one because of our divers user-base.

Maybe it's a non-argument...we just turn this on for high skill levels or hardcore-only mode. But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)