WR Pass Route/Defense Thread

[Scott]

Kind of off topic Ian, but will we ever see fumbled exchanges in the game?

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Wow, another great thread. I think every post you guys have written so far is pretty much spot on. There is a ton of room for us to grow in terms of WR / DB interaction, DB coverage, and WR route running. I also am totally down with this idea: "Would it not be prudent to give some sort of basic knowledge of whats going on in the owners manual for the game or in game practice tutorials." Here's where the design call comes into play, and that is where you say if you throw to a receiver in the first leg of his route, he should not see it coming and not be able to catch it. This is an easy change, but this is a big and scary one because of our divers user-base. Maybe it's a non-argument...we just turn this on for high skill levels or hardcore-only mode. But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)

This is a very important analysis especially given the diverse user-base. My tournament friends will not be happy if they cannot take control of the WR and catch it on their own. They are going to crucify you guys if you make them go to timing based routes. Myself I prefer timing based routes, I think it is more realistic, but, the current mechanic has become deeply sedimented. It has become like second hand that hey I know I'll be able to do this in the passing game. Taking that away will have that sector of users head hunting. But I think you may have the solution in your post. High skill level mode. Maybe call it Advanced Passing or something. It should also be a part of online games too.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)

I'm really for that as an upper-level option. Both sides of the ball would have to adhere to the same awareness, though. That would bring down the pass completion % to a respectable level. There are many times where a QB makes a bad read/throw based on pressure or poor communication pre-snap. (especially in a hot route situation) As to the second part, let them switch but make their awareness and catch attributes go down to emulate the "surprise" and only the best guys should be able to overcome that scenario.

[Danimal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

[/i]Here's where the design call comes into play, and that is where you say if you throw to a receiver in the first leg of his route, he should not see it coming and not be able to catch it. This is an easy change, but this is a big and scary one because of our divers user-base. Maybe it's a non-argument...we just turn this on for high skill levels or hardcore-only mode. But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)

What I think and whats is reality is a different situation. I think if you add something like that it would be terrific, but I also think it would turn off many of the non-hard core gamers. So if it was my call I would create a new simulation difficulty setting.

As for receivers and DB's not seeing the ball, I think there is a whole can of worms there. For example why is a QB throwing the ball on the first leg of an out for example? In a real game I would assume this would be because of an unaccounted for blitzing defender. But a good QB / WR combo is going to recognize this and the WR is going to adjust his route and look for the ball early. Right now that is in the users hands, he needs to adjust the route.

In game terms however it is possible that a player just tosses the ball too early. What do you do there? Hit the WR in the back, throw the out even though the WR hasn't reached his break. Then we come back to my DB statements, what technique is the DB in. Is he in straight man? If so he is 7-10 yards off the ball, if that ball is thrown early on an out pattern he should be seeing it. Is he in trail, then he wouldn't see the early throw and chances are it would hit him in the back.

I know I am not really answering your question here. So here it goes, I don't think a WR or DB who doesn't see the ball should be able to react to it EVER. I don't think a player should be able to switch to a WR who is suppose to be running an out and catch a quick hitch (again though I can't see this being taken away from the Madden tourney crowd) However I'll go back to my original statement, get the secondary playing proper technique and get better looking animations and a lot of the statements like "That Db totally had his back to the ball and reacted to it" would go away. Because the days of the DB's just running with the wide outs would be gone and they would be seeing the ball.

[jfsolo]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Wow, another great thread. I think every post you guys have written so far is pretty much spot on. There is a ton of room for us to grow in terms of WR / DB interaction, DB coverage, and WR route running. I also am totally down with this idea: "Would it not be prudent to give some sort of basic knowledge of whats going on in the owners manual for the game or in game practice tutorials." Here's where the design call comes into play, and that is where you say if you throw to a receiver in the first leg of his route, he should not see it coming and not be able to catch it. This is an easy change, but this is a big and scary one because of our divers user-base. Maybe it's a non-argument...we just turn this on for high skill levels or hardcore-only mode. But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)

I've always wanted these games to have a difficulty level called "NFL Simulation" or something to that effect. That way you could really tune all the different elements of the game to more closely resemble what we see on Sunday's without alienating a large percentage of your customer base.

Tournament types who want their stick skills to always supersede the utilization of real football strategy would never have to touch this mode.

[Sigma4Life]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Wow, another great thread. I think every post you guys have written so far is pretty much spot on. There is a ton of room for us to grow in terms of WR / DB interaction, DB coverage, and WR route running. I also am totally down with this idea: "Would it not be prudent to give some sort of basic knowledge of whats going on in the owners manual for the game or in game practice tutorials." Here's where the design call comes into play, and that is where you say if you throw to a receiver in the first leg of his route, he should not see it coming and not be able to catch it. This is an easy change, but this is a big and scary one because of our divers user-base. Maybe it's a non-argument...we just turn this on for high skill levels or hardcore-only mode. But what are your thoughts on making receivers and defenders NEVER react to the ball unless they see it or they are in a "leg" of their route that they know they can expect the ball in? What about a user taking over control of the WR during that time...should they be able to? (i.e. you throw it before his cut, and you switch and catch it on your own?)

First off, i think the best solution is to create a different modes. You'll never be able to please everyone so you are forced to create various modes. Second, please make the mode carry over to online play. It should be very easy to create several types of online ranked games based on pre-determined settings. I rarely play offline so any mode that only applies to offline play basically doesn't exist to me.

I think for the problem at hand, the QB should throw to the spot where the route is designed to go, not to where the WR is at that moment in time.

This brings up another issue, QBs are too accurate on broken plays. In reality QBs are accurate because they practice throwing to certain spots on the field. On a broken play it's hard for the QB to measure where the WR is going and how fast. There should be many more bad throws after the play breaks down.

There are a few QBs that are really good at this so maybe there should be a rating for this. Romo is great at hitting WRs in stride on broken plays so he would be rated fairly high in this category.

[cdon2k]

Wow, I can't imagine seeing this much positive stuff going on in the Madden board, and I have been pretty skeptical, but here goes....

I think I may have an answer to the question at hand. DON'T let a player who doesn't see the ball react (leave all of the blitz pickup to hot routing and RB's in the flat), and AUTOSWITCH the user while the pass is in the air. That way usercatch is still prominent (although keep it an option to just let the computer catch if the player doesn't touch the controller). Having the AUTOSWITCH during the leg of a route keeps the tournament players happy because stick skills become all that more important. Plus as a bonus, you could work this into DB/WR interaction as you could expand that close cam that's in 09 into something where some sort of "FIGHT FOR THE BALL" interaction comes into play between the players in future iterations.

Hopefully Ian reads this because pocket based timing routes are the reality of the NFL and even if we only get a SIMULATION online game mode, all will be worth our efforts.

Cdon
P.S. Let me know what you think Ian and other O.S.ers

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by cdon2k

Wow, I can't imagine seeing this much positive stuff going on in the Madden board, and I have been pretty skeptical, but here goes.... I think I may have an answer to the question at hand. DON'T let a player who doesn't see the ball react (leave all of the blitz pickup to hot routing and RB's in the flat), and AUTOSWITCH the user while the pass is in the air. That way usercatch is still prominent (although keep it an option to just let the computer catch if the player doesn't touch the controller). Having the AUTOSWITCH during the leg of a route keeps the tournament players happy because stick skills become all that more important. Plus as a bonus, you could work this into DB/WR interaction as you could expand that close cam that's in 09 into something where some sort of "FIGHT FOR THE BALL" interaction comes into play between the players in future iterations. Hopefully Ian reads this because pocket based timing routes are the reality of the NFL and even if we only get a SIMULATION online game mode, all will be worth our efforts. Cdon P.S. Let me know what you think Ian and other O.S.ers

I like that!