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Ian Pockets and DE Play

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Old 06-14-2008, 12:36 PM   #73
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
I think the biggest issue that needs to be addressed in the running game is the assignments.

As Sven Draconian has pointed out, in the Power O play on the website, the tight end, who is supposed to block down, ends up swinging out toward the cornerback.

The play, although successful in the video, would be far MORE successful if that TE DID block down as assigned and sealed the backer or DE, allowing the leading FB or RG to handle the corner.

The weakness of the running game in Madden is this "fluid" AI. It seems to make decisions based on the front it sees, but they're not decisions grounded in a concept for the play. I don't know how practical it would be it set up blocking assignments for odd and even fronts for each running play in the game, but I think it would make a world of difference in Madden.
I agree but let's keep in mind one thing and I have to remind myself of this because I do it too. Even though the TE was supposed to block down, when we present these scenarios we always do so with perfect blocking in mind. If my DE on that side is Osi for instance I wouldn't want him getting sealed. I mean afterall, coaching defensive players one of the first things we used to tell our DE's is DON'T GET YOUR A$$ REACHED and turned inside and you always play with our outside shoulder free. Again another instance in which now I'm talking about perfect technique

So I think a larger discussion needs to be had here because when we talk about these things we always talk about them from an idealistic point of view. I'm not sure what the question should be yet, but we gotta spell things out a little more than simply presenting the ideal perfect scenario. Because when we do that and EA changes it then all of a sudden the complete picture is absent from the game.

Secondly, that the blocks are based on the front I think that is correct. The problem is we don't have run adjustments. For instance, here is an article written by Chris over at his blog about 2 years ago on the Colts stretch play, in which while there are assignments, there are also me and you calls by the Center, which we do not have, but it is all based on the front that the defense lines up in.

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/search?q=Colts

Quote:
The Indianapolis Colts and The "Pin and Pull" Stretch Play

Intro

[In this terminology, the play is called "flex."]

FLEX is a strong side play.

The aiming point for the Single Back is 1 yard outside of the TE.

If the “A” is play side he is responsible for blocking the force (strong safety) defender.

If the “A” is aligned on the backside of the play he must start on an inside path and block the most dangerous pursuing defender
After the exchange the QB will set-up like he does on PISTOL protection

If the “A” is in motion prior to the snap and we want him to block the force defender on the play side we will call FLEX BOSS.

BOSS means Back On Strong Safety

Against "Under"



If the Center can reach the Nose he will make a “YOU” call to the Strong Guard telling the Strong Guard to pull and block the M(ike) linebacker.

The Strong Tackle and Tight End will “TEX”. The TE must block DOWN and not allow any penetration. The Strong Tackle needs to pull and RUN TO REACH the S(am) linebacker.

Against "Loaded"



If the Center cannot reach the Nose he will make a “ME” call to the strong guard telling him to block the Nose and the Center will pull to block the M(ike).

The Strong Guard must block DOWN and not allow the Nose to penetrate.

The Strong Tackle and the TE will “TEX," as described above.

Against "Adjusted 4-3"


The Tight End is responsible for blocking the DE wherever he aligns.

The Strong Tackle is responsible for pulling and blocking the SLB’er wherever he aligns. Stay square and see the Sam linebacker during the pull.

The Center is responsible for blocking the Mike linebacker. The Quick Guard has a difficult block and must be prepared to SCRAMBLE block the Nose.

Against "4-3 Wide"



The Tight End is responsible for blocking the DE wherever he aligns. STEP-CROSS-STEP to reach the DE.

The Strong Tackle is responsible for pulling and blocking the Sam linebacker. Stay square and see the Sam linebacker during the pull - you could go around OR inside of the TE’s block.

The Center is responsible for blocking the Mike linebacker & the Quick Guard blocks the Nose.
I think blocking based on front is correct, but there are some hard fast rules that are missing and we do not have interior adjustment calls. At best they can try to program responsibilities based on front alignment I suppose. But that's alot of work and keeps them from adding more defensive fronts to the game that probably need to be there. I'm still waiting for them to add the 44 to Madden. A real 44 defense with 4 linebackers. It's not used alot but it is used. The Titans will use it a great deal when they are facing a run heavy team - see game 1 vs Jaguars last season.

Last edited by LBzrule; 06-14-2008 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:52 PM   #74
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

LBz, man, talking to you makes me realize how long I've been out of the game and how short a time I was in it. God I miss coaching.

My "specialty" (read: Greatest interest, I'm a Bill Walsh disciple) really is passing concepts, and that's basically the only place where my knowledge approaches yours, outside of that I'm at a disadvantage... but I get what you're saying. As a 'read and react' sort of blocking AI, I think Madden does a fairly decent job of deciding assignments.

I think the biggest point you made was regarding new fronts. As much as I'd love to see blocking assignments that absolutely mirror NFL play calling, I see where it would hold back defensive playbook expansion, and that would, to be blunt, suck ***.

I want the 4-4 simply because that's what my HS team ran:P
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:30 PM   #75
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

Good stuff as always guys. I can't wait for VJ to get back from vacation so we can start going through all this stuff.
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Old 06-14-2008, 04:24 PM   #76
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

This is one of THE BEST football gaming threads I have ever read! Excellent suggestions, explanations, videos, and a couple EA guys more than willing to share their input and more than that, willing to take this feedback and factor it in for future games.

Kudos to all!
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Old 06-14-2008, 04:41 PM   #77
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

This is a great thread. One question for Ian though. How much of this stuff do you think will make it in this year? What's on the list for next year? Thanks!
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Old 06-14-2008, 04:49 PM   #78
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

All of this talk is for future games...not for 09.
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:05 PM   #79
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Re: Ian Pockets and DE Play

Is it possible at all to make qb's accuracy/Power take a hit due to amount of pressure from the D-LIne. But if you step up into the pocket/set your feet and then throw to the maximum amount of your qb's attribute abilities. So for example if you are playing a team like the Giants and you are getting pressured into your throws they be more off target if you are rushing the throw them. But if you have the awareness to step up into the pocket and set your feet you can make a perfect throw without losing attribute points. This will force players to play the correct way of football. Not rolling and throwing and dropping back 20 yds and throwing. Make the qb attribute drop VERY noticable so that people will learn to stay in the pocket.

Maybe even program where if say a Rex Grossman throws due to pressure without stepping into the pockett and setting feet say his pass acc is a 85 well now its coming out at a 70, and have the LB's/DB's have a high chance of getting a interception. WHere if Peyton Manning throws the same way being pressured he drops from a 95 to 80 but although still a chance of getting picked not as much as the 70 of Rex Grossman's. Im just making the numbers up but you see what im saying. Maybe the defense can be programmed to take advantage of bad throws from this # ?? to that ?? and then have less advantage from this # ?? to that # ??.( Just an idea)

I think this could really distinguise qb's, esspecially if a qb takes a big drop to qb attributes if he does not step up and set his feet.

This can only happen of course if the DL/OL get improved cause as of right now they dont really force you to step up into a pocket (which doesnt form YET) But in future games where a DE can get up field.

I think that another thing thats needs to be looked at for next year's game while helping the OL/DL part of the game is the Spacing. They are way to close to each other. Give us a GAp space so that it gives a winddow/lane to step up into. Also helps when running the ball and defense when having a gap responsability. Maybe if the player get a bit wider/longer it would create that gap? I love the smaller player models as is but there size may be the reason the spacing is off.

Last edited by kmart2180; 06-14-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:42 PM   #80
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A ha!

I am so much more confident for the future...I realize that everyone is pretty smitten with some of the things that 2k has done with OL/DL interaction, and I just saw this video:




Watching the LG on this play...

So all they have is long canned animations for "get engaged" moves. If this was in any way truly dynamic, the DL would have peeled off and grabbed the quarterback...but instead he just kept going right by him in a pretty unrealistic manner.

We can absolutely do way better than this when we start to implement more realistic edge rushing. Steering, branching, looping, etc...they have none of that - it just is a really long animation that looks good.

Thanks for whoever posted this in the pass animation thread...a really good example of exactly how they implemented it.
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