ALL PRO Football player abilities vs. Weapons

[Ian_Cummings]

Just thought I'd chime in real quick with my 2c:

I liked some of All-Pro's abilities...not all. Going through the thought process of how they made this game, I would assume they probably realized at some point in their cycle (maybe it was right away, maybe it was halfway through) that all their legends would be pretty much rated 95 through 99 in their old system, so they had to come up with a way to separate them or else the game would be pretty lame. So they chose to do it with special "abilities" while still keeping all of the player's physical ratings similar (if not the same).

Also, one thing to note, I would wager that the majority of the abilities are just artificial ratings-changes in the back-end (as russell said). Like if I had to guess, I'd say they rated everyone in the game at say an 85 speed, and then just made the "speed burner" ability a 99. Because no matter what, when you get down to it, there has to be a big list of numbers that make up a player - so if he's got the "Play Action" ability, then he's a 99 and if he doesn't then he's a zero. Now they also did the animation specific stuff like the scissor kick move and such, which I thought was much cooler.

I personally have no issue trying to make a few of our current "ratings" into abilities. In the back-end it can work like that anyway...for example, certain spectacular catches only unlock at a 90+ rating, so instead of us rating guys from 0-99 we should just say they have the ability to make spectacular catches or they don't. Stiff-arm and Hit Power could possibly be done the same way, though I guess there's more disparity there in the NFL...there's a little more middle ground.

So in summary, I am not real sure which way we'll lean, but probably to both sides. I'd say as we keep adding more and more ratings, we'll probably do some in the TRUE/FALSE mentality instead of an actual 0-99, which in essence means it's a special ability at that point.

The design challenge with all of these things - weapons, ratings, and abilities - is finding ways to show the user everything that's there so they aren't frustrated. Like let's say we add a "throw on the run" rating (or ability). And maybe someone like Peyton Manning is rated poorly in it (or doesn't have it). Well if a regular ol' Colts fan is playing and his #1 super-favorite QB #18 Peyton just starts throwing everything in the dirt or out of bounds (because he likes to roll out when he passes since standing in the pocket makes him nervous) we need to find a way to TELL Johnny ColtsFan WHY it's happening instead of him just thinking our game is broken. And maybe even give him an option to turn off the penalty to his accuracy and power while throwing on the run. Not relaying this info to the user was a pretty major down-fall to APF, and one of the main reasons why I personally think it didn't succeed outside of a hardcore / sim audience (along with the forced create-a-team flow and ultra slow animation responsiveness).

Doing this type of "catering" obviously adds more time to the task, and this is often why features get cut because we want to do them right and we may not have the time to do so.

I know I kind of rambled there....any thoughts - specifically on that design challenge?

[Sigma4Life]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Just thought I'd chime in real quick with my 2c: I liked some of All-Pro's abilities...not all. Going through the thought process of how they made this game, I would assume they probably realized at some point in their cycle (maybe it was right away, maybe it was halfway through) that all their legends would be pretty much rated 95 through 99 in their old system, so they had to come up with a way to separate them or else the game would be pretty lame. So they chose to do it with special "abilities" while still keeping all of the player's physical ratings similar (if not the same). Also, one thing to note, I would wager that the majority of the abilities are just artificial ratings-changes in the back-end (as russell said). Like if I had to guess, I'd say they rated everyone in the game at say an 85 speed, and then just made the "speed burner" ability a 99. Because no matter what, when you get down to it, there has to be a big list of numbers that make up a player - so if he's got the "Play Action" ability, then he's a 99 and if he doesn't then he's a zero. Now they also did the animation specific stuff like the scissor kick move and such, which I thought was much cooler. I personally have no issue trying to make a few of our current "ratings" into abilities. In the back-end it can work like that anyway...for example, certain spectacular catches only unlock at a 90+ rating, so instead of us rating guys from 0-99 we should just say they have the ability to make spectacular catches or they don't. Stiff-arm and Hit Power could possibly be done the same way, though I guess there's more disparity there in the NFL...there's a little more middle ground. So in summary, I am not real sure which way we'll lean, but probably to both sides. I'd say as we keep adding more and more ratings, we'll probably do some in the TRUE/FALSE mentality instead of an actual 0-99, which in essence means it's a special ability at that point. The design challenge with all of these things - weapons, ratings, and abilities - is finding ways to show the user everything that's there so they aren't frustrated. Like let's say we add a "throw on the run" rating (or ability). And maybe someone like Peyton Manning is rated poorly in it (or doesn't have it). Well if a regular ol' Colts fan is playing and his #1 super-favorite QB #18 Peyton just starts throwing everything in the dirt or out of bounds (because he likes to roll out when he passes since standing in the pocket makes him nervous) we need to find a way to TELL Johnny ColtsFan WHY it's happening instead of him just thinking our game is broken. And maybe even give him an option to turn off the penalty to his accuracy and power while throwing on the run. Not relaying this info to the user was a pretty major down-fall to APF, and one of the main reasons why I personally think it didn't succeed outside of a hardcore / sim audience (along with the forced create-a-team flow and ultra slow animation responsiveness). Doing this type of "catering" obviously adds more time to the task, and this is often why features get cut because we want to do them right and we may not have the time to do so. I know I kind of rambled there....any thoughts - specifically on that design challenge?

I think adding a combination of ratings & abilities would be a great improvement in Madden. But instead of doing 'true' or 'false' I'd use a 4 point system of 'great', 'good', 'average' and 'bad'.

[adembroski]

I dislike "abilities"... There is nothing that can be associated with a rating or ability that is something that every human being, or professional football player, either can't do at all, or can do at an equal level.

Ratings are far more realistic, and that's our goal, is it not (I mean fans, not developers)? Oh, no, NFL coaches don't have these nice spreadsheets with numbers written on them... but take anything a player is capable of doing on the football field, and I'll show you 20 guys that can do it at varied levels of proficiency.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigma4Life

I think adding a combination of ratings & abilities would be a great improvement in Madden. But instead of doing 'true' or 'false' I'd use a 4 point system of 'great', 'good', 'average' and 'bad'.

Yeah if it makes sense for the ability, that's definitely a valid idea.

[grunt]

Quote: Originally Posted by russell05

There are so many things wrong I don't even know where to start. First please stop with the "All pro football didn't use numbers for ratings" Yes they did the dev team just hid them its a known fact that APF is a port of NFL 2k5. If I can remember correctly didn't that game use numbers for player ratings yes it did. Can we please stop with this the only thing 2K did was hide the numbers. The game didn't have a big enough budget for them to totally re-write the engine code and use a brand new system that no other sports game has till this day.

I like APF because different players really play differently from other players. The attributes really high lighted the strength of their engine. I would take a combination of ratings and attributes.

[grunt]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I dislike "abilities"... There is nothing that can be associated with a rating or ability that is something that every human being, or professional football player, either can't do at all, or can do at an equal level. Ratings are far more realistic, and that's our goal, is it not (I mean fans, not developers)? Oh, no, NFL coaches don't have these nice spreadsheets with numbers written on them... but take anything a player is capable of doing on the football field, and I'll show you 20 guys that can do it at varied levels of proficiency.

When I read Pro Football Weekly Draft Preview the authors give a number grade but the write ups are based on abilities. I believe college and pro scouts use a combination of a number grade and abilities.

[GoGiaNTS25]

Quote: Originally Posted by grunt

I like APF because different players really play differently from other players. The attributes really high lighted the strength of their engine. I would take a combination of ratings and attributes.

yeah they have different attitudes. in madden if you play michael vick and tom brady playing against eachother then you wont see much difference in their attitudes just in their ratings. if you take peyton manning and tom brady they play exactly the same. in APF if you take randall cunningham and dan marino, theyll do different things (randall cunningham will run out of the pocket, scramble more, and rush more when no one is open. i also like how in APF, they act like a player really would (you dont see many dive tackles, you dont see a player juke or spin when its not needed, QBs WILL scramble out but only if necessary, etc)

you just dont see that kind of variety in madden

[grunt]

I would like a game that think of football players in the same way scouts, coaches, and general managers think of players. All players have raw scores but what make certain players fit in some systems better than others and that come down to players abilities. The weapons was a good first step but I would like to see weapons fleshed out more.