Why the narrow-sighted "AI" is a problem on Madden and NCAA

[rhombic21]

I recently posted a video highlighting several problems with zone coverage on NCAA, http://files.filefront.com/ZoneDIssu.../fileinfo.html , which shows why zone coverage on NCAA (and presumably Madden) is fundamentally flawed.

The flaws with zone coverage, while glaring in themselves, highlight an even broader problem with the "AI" on these games. The "AI" is extremely narrow-sighted. Each player is programmed to have a specific assignment, and he executes that assignment according to a collection of ratings. He is completely oblivious to what the rest of his team-mates are doing. As a result, he is incapable of understanding what the weaknesses in the defense/play are, and how he should be prepared to react accordingly.

The problem with this approach is that it's completely contrary to real football. For example, in real football, corners in cover 2 will sink back to give help on vertical threats when there are no threats to the flat area, and the middle linebacker will sink back into the deep middle when there are no threats in front of him. Or if you bring a heavy blitz. Secondary players (particularly veteran secondary players), understanding that the blitz is going to probably force a quick throw, will often squat on short routes and force incompletions or turnovers. Another area where this becomes apparent is with the blitz and defensive line rush. In real life, you don't have the serious issues with containing QBs from rolling out that you do on the game, because the defenders rushing the passer have a basic understanding about what their rush lane is, and how it fits into the scheme. Thus, outside rush defenders (DEs or players blitzing off the edges) understand that they have containment responsibilities and take rush angles that force the QB to stay in the pocket.

They do these things because the understand what the other 10 players on defense are doing, and know where the holes in the defense are that the offense is probably going to try and attack. On the game, there is no real capability for players to understand concepts. You can assign a player to guard a flat area, but he doesn't really have any capability to understand WHY he's covering the flat area. So you get things like the video posted above, where the players end up guarding nobody at all, instead of being able to make an adjustment on the fly, within the scheme, to adapt.

On offense it's not as significant of a problem, since the offense can dictate the action, and thus the user can manually make adjustments for his players, knowing how the defense is going to react. But it still crops up. Notice on running plays where lead blockers will ignore a relevant defender and turn back to block somebody behind the play? I see this all the time. I turn the corner on the play, and there's one defender about 10 yards downfield, who (due to separate AI issues) is backpedaling away from the ball. Rather than realize that we have gotten outside the defense and I need him to seal this defender off so I can head up the sideline, my lead blocker will often turn back and try to block somebody back towards the middle, behind the play, forcing me to try and beat the defender 1-1 in the open field. That's because they don't really understand the play at all. They don't have any understanding to know where the runningback is attempting to run the ball, and be able to seal off a hole to clear a path for him.

These games need significant AI advances in a number of areas. Adaptive AI is another issue. But until there's some ability for defenders to understand concepts or schemes, rather than just their specific assignment, the AI will always be significantly limited. As a result, smart players at positions other than QB will continue to be mostly useless compared to players with superior physical attributes (speed, strength, height, etc...) In reality, smart players matter a great deal, and not just because they can see play-art or because they don't bite on play action. Teams like the Patriots dominate on defense, despite not necessarily having tons of speed or athletes with elite physical abilities, because they have 11 defenders that understand the scheme and don't get confused or end up out of position. They are able to adapt to changing situations and make adjustments on the fly, something that players on Madden and NCAA have no ability to do.

[broncos24]

anyone have a summary

[thudias]

He wants smarter AI

[JMD]

The defense is way to slow in reacting to the play, if they react at all.

[maddenps2]

I made a post about how they have to incorporate teamate awarness intelligence in some way. There is no real teamwork if the computer players can not properly interpret what their teamates are trying to do to stop the offensive back.

To me it seems the computer a.i only only interprets itself on the field vs the offensive back and doesn't have an awarness in reaction to teamates surronding, forcing, and engaging the offensive back. "I should do this action becaue my teamate is doing this action"

[callmetaternuts]

summary............geez, read the post, it makes some good points. If you have time to log in here, you have time to read a 3-4 paragraphy post touching on some of the issues the AI lacks.

rhombic, good post. its situational awareness also. On 3rd and 23, my LB should NEVER bite on playaction and my DB's shouldnt let anyone get behind them.

[vsoul86]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

I recently posted a video highlighting several problems with zone coverage on NCAA, http://files.filefront.com/ZoneDIssu.../fileinfo.html , which shows why zone coverage on NCAA (and presumably Madden) is fundamentally flawed. The flaws with zone coverage, while glaring in themselves, highlight an even broader problem with the "AI" on these games. The "AI" is extremely narrow-sighted. Each player is programmed to have a specific assignment, and he executes that assignment according to a collection of ratings. He is completely oblivious to what the rest of his team-mates are doing. As a result, he is incapable of understanding what the weaknesses in the defense/play are, and how he should be prepared to react accordingly. The problem with this approach is that it's completely contrary to real football. For example, in real football, corners in cover 2 will sink back to give help on vertical threats when there are no threats to the flat area, and the middle linebacker will sink back into the deep middle when there are no threats in front of him. Or if you bring a heavy blitz. Secondary players (particularly veteran secondary players), understanding that the blitz is going to probably force a quick throw, will often squat on short routes and force incompletions or turnovers. Another area where this becomes apparent is with the blitz and defensive line rush. In real life, you don't have the serious issues with containing QBs from rolling out that you do on the game, because the defenders rushing the passer have a basic understanding about what their rush lane is, and how it fits into the scheme. Thus, outside rush defenders (DEs or players blitzing off the edges) understand that they have containment responsibilities and take rush angles that force the QB to stay in the pocket. They do these things because the understand what the other 10 players on defense are doing, and know where the holes in the defense are that the offense is probably going to try and attack. On the game, there is no real capability for players to understand concepts. You can assign a player to guard a flat area, but he doesn't really have any capability to understand WHY he's covering the flat area. So you get things like the video posted above, where the players end up guarding nobody at all, instead of being able to make an adjustment on the fly, within the scheme, to adapt. On offense it's not as significant of a problem, since the offense can dictate the action, and thus the user can manually make adjustments for his players, knowing how the defense is going to react. But it still crops up. Notice on running plays where lead blockers will ignore a relevant defender and turn back to block somebody behind the play? I see this all the time. I turn the corner on the play, and there's one defender about 10 yards downfield, who (due to separate AI issues) is backpedaling away from the ball. Rather than realize that we have gotten outside the defense and I need him to seal this defender off so I can head up the sideline, my lead blocker will often turn back and try to block somebody back towards the middle, behind the play, forcing me to try and beat the defender 1-1 in the open field. That's because they don't really understand the play at all. They don't have any understanding to know where the runningback is attempting to run the ball, and be able to seal off a hole to clear a path for him. These games need significant AI advances in a number of areas. Adaptive AI is another issue. But until there's some ability for defenders to understand concepts or schemes, rather than just their specific assignment, the AI will always be significantly limited. As a result, smart players at positions other than QB will continue to be mostly useless compared to players with superior physical attributes (speed, strength, height, etc...) In reality, smart players matter a great deal, and not just because they can see play-art or because they don't bite on play action. Teams like the Patriots dominate on defense, despite not necessarily having tons of speed or athletes with elite physical abilities, because they have 11 defenders that understand the scheme and don't get confused or end up out of position. They are able to adapt to changing situations and make adjustments on the fly, something that players on Madden and NCAA have no ability to do.

Ditto, unfortunately I seriously doubt we will ever see advances like this on the current generation of platforms, I'm not even sure they are capable of such advanced AI. On top of that, even if they were capable, Ea has no incentive to make these advances since the majority of their customers do not have such extensive knowledge, or just don't care about these issues. Great post though.

[yamabushi]

Great post Rhombic, not only for game A.I. but just basic football knowledge as well.