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Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

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Old 08-29-2008, 09:11 PM   #1
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Icon3 Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

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Re: Why the narrow-sighted "AI" is a problem on Madden and NCAA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltron
I have no doubt that they already have a few people working for them with plenty of real life football knowledge, but I wasn't referring to consulting people from the board on these issues...

I think they should hire or consult with football coaches, college level or higher, who could come in and really nail down the inner workings of coverages, fronts and run fits, detailing all of the techniques and teaching points for each individual defender which comprise the whole of the scheme. There are going to be a lot of if .. then scenarios to be worked out and I think you need to go to the experts to get that right.

I think the game shows a 'basic' understanding and representation of defensive concepts, but to go further with the AI you're going to need to hire the big guns to get it right. If we want the AI to show an awareness of the defensive and correctly distinguish between multiple priorities, those priorities have to be rock solid at the outset.



Good idea, but we already do this, except with real NFL coaches. We have no less than 5 NFL coaches (from Quality Control guys to off and def coordinators - Mike Mularkey & Jim Schwartz for example) each year come in and meet with us and talk pure football. A lead programmer and myself even flew to Cincinnati and were given a full day overview of the Bengals defense by Leslie Frazier a few years ago - they treated us just like were rookies. (Awesome experience btw)

So to clarify, your statement about us having to "hire the big guns" to get it right is not entirely true...I can tell you that we have designs written and notes taken that if all implemented could make true-life NFL AI. The problem lies in the fact that AI is without a doubt the most complex area of programming. I'd even say more-so than graphics/rendering. And the even bigger problem is that AI is hamstrung by animation. So even if we have the most advanced d-line gap assignment/technique system that's humanly possible, we have to have a very large amount of animation coverage to make it look like it's working. They go hand in hand.

So I guess what I'd sum it up with is...the AI that you all are talking about above IS the future of the Madden franchise. Without a doubt. We all know what needs to go in...I'm not an exploit guy or a tourney junkie; I'm all about creating ultra-realistic gameplay and finding the best way to still make it really fun to play. When I get my ultimate game, jet-packs won't matter because your receiver will end up out with a concussion. And nano's won't exist because real gap assignments will over-rule everything. The NFL license has actually given us this all-access approach to coaches so that's why we're set up so well for the future. But it takes a lot of time to do things like this. I mean we chose to re-write man coverage in full in 08 and that took over 10 weeks from one programmer to finish...and even still it doesn't feel "perfect" because we don't have the correct animation coverage to match it. None of this will come overnight...but I'd be interested in hearing what you all think are the most high priority issues...






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Re: Why the narrow-sighted "AI" is a problem on Madden and NCAA


Quote:
Originally Posted by rhombic21
Obviously you've been beaten up about this pretty badly, but I definitely think line play, on both sides, and zone coverage are the two biggest priorities right now.



Ditto. It all starts with line play. It is the foundation of the game of football and I hope Madden 2010. If you work on line play and have it work with traps, belly, true zone blocking, gap play A.I.; Elite DE with signature style pass rush, DT that require double teams etc. …the rest of the game will really start to fall in place. You could have the user use the R stick to assign blocking schemes/ Defensive schemes.

(I know every post I write is about line play)
Now that we have all played Madden for over 2 weeks, Let's answer his question

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Old 08-29-2008, 10:20 PM   #2
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

What would change the game dramatically for the better is a TOTAL re-working of QB play. The passes they can get off turn the game from almost sim to total arcade. Perhaps you may want to leave the option for Madden Ballers to use this style QB play as it would be a dramatic departure from prior Maddens.

For me, and I imagine many others, make many of the magical throws take longer and more realistic times to get off. If someone is running backwards and attempts a bullet throw across the field the QB must turn and square his shoulders and risk getting creamed, etc. No QB ever could make the throws while fading back that are made in the game.

Line play must be addressed, multiple, chainable, animation breaking moves to get to the QB, line play should be a compelling mini game in itself. Pockets need to be formed, players with a clear path to the QB must NOT be suction blocked into a back/blocker, they should be "chipped". I guess what I'm saying is make these 2 crucial elements far more realistic.

Lastly and most importantly, INCREASED ANIMATIONS, INCREASED ANIMATIONS. Squeeze enough animations into the disc until it is about to explode. If you'll excuse my jab, take the animations from the Hanna Barbera stage to the Pixar stage.

As a former creative director (not for video games) I would focus solely on these things and the rest would naturally fall into place. I would have animators working on shifts around the clock until Madden 2010.

Then you must implement my option of the "Ultimate Madden" Sim Mode!

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-sim-mode.html
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:11 PM   #3
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

I agree with the post above, good points.

>I wish that the playbooks would be re-done. Every game, every year I find myself going to the same plays. Doesn't matter what team I use or playbook, all of the same plays are mixed up in their playbooks.

>I wish the game would feel like the NFL speed. In the NFL, WR's can sometimes burn the DB covering them and it doesn't feel like that in Madden.

>I think it would be cool if you could control how far you lead your WR when throwing. Say I have a WR running a streak and he's covered pretty good, so as I'm pumping to throw a slightly move the right stick to the left to lead him left to get away from the tight coverage. Idk it that's self-explanatory or not.

>Either put more effort into Superstar mode or scrap it and use the disc space for something more productive (ie. create a stadium )

Thanks,

Matt
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:31 PM   #4
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

Online Franchise with correct divisions, and more control than you can shake a stick at is a must. coupled with complete webpage back up is a must. Anything less than that and you are insulting your fan base.

Last edited by newmoon; 08-30-2008 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:39 PM   #5
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Sufferer
For me, and I imagine many others, make many of the magical throws take longer and more realistic times to get off. If someone is running backwards and attempts a bullet throw across the field the QB must turn and square his shoulders and risk getting creamed, etc. No QB ever could make the throws while fading back that are made in the game.
I am by no means claiming that my proposal is the perfect resolution to the QB problem; however I would like to see EA utilize a similar feature that 2K developed in their football franchise, mostly recently with All-Pro.

There should be a transparent ring around the QB’s feet. When the football is hiked and the QB begins his drop (3, 5 or 7), there should be a button that is pushed, and when activated, slowly charges the transparent ring around the QB’s feet, turning the once clear ring orange. Once the ring is fully charged, a QB has a better % of completing a pass, increasing his overall accuracy and awareness. This will not only reward users for staying in the pocket, but it will also act as a punishment for users playing defense who do not sustain pressure.

Obviously, the idea is far from perfect, however I think it will act as an enhanced simulation tool for users who not only a) stay in the pocket as a QB, but b) actually throw with both feet planted. If a user utilizes a sprint or run with their QB, the transparent ring would automatically turn clear, even if already charged, lessening their ability to complete a pass.

Last edited by Captain Cold Crush; 08-29-2008 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 08-30-2008, 12:01 AM   #6
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Cold Crush
I am by no means claiming that my proposal is the perfect resolution to the QB problem; however I would like to see EA utilize a similar feature that 2K developed in their football franchise, mostly recently with All-Pro.

There should be a transparent ring around the QB’s feet. When the football is hiked and the QB begins his drop (3, 5 or 7), there should be a button that is pushed, and when activated, slowly charges the transparent ring around the QB’s feet, turning the once clear ring orange. Once the ring is fully charged, a QB has a better % of completing a pass, increasing his overall accuracy and awareness. This will not only reward users for staying in the pocket, but it will also act as a punishment for users playing defense who do not sustain pressure.

Obviously, the idea is far from perfect, however I think it will act as an enhanced simulation tool for users who not only a) stay in the pocket as a QB, but b) actually throw with both feet planted. If a user utilizes a sprint or run with their QB, the transparent ring would automatically turn clear, even if already charged, lessening their ability to complete a pass.
I like it.
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Old 08-30-2008, 12:32 AM   #7
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

Priorities:

1. Fix all bugs and glitches

3. Give us customizable on/off options and effective sliders for everything

4. Eliminate all exploitable cheez junk

5. Presentation and immersion

...

Then worry about new animations and features like backtrack/rewind. Please EA, don't use this dev cycle for some major overhaul just to have a new feature to list on the back of the game. We've got a solid foundation in '09, just needs some serious tweaking...
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Old 08-30-2008, 12:45 AM   #8
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Re: Ian asked "what you all think are the most high priority issues...

^^^^

Disagree strongly, the foundation IS the problem. The unrealistic QB and line play distorts the whole game.

The foundation needs to rebuilt, starting with the qb and line play as I mentioned earlier in the thread.
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